[Madness]

The Great Ordeal has reconvened following the disaster at Irsulor and The Aspect-Emperor gives the dread command to consume their foe...

[mrganondorf]

just love how The Meat totally changes the character of the Ordeal
---
Saubon dying, reaching for himself OMG!!!

[H]

So, Dagliash itself, most certainly was a trap, that much is pretty obvious.  The question though is a trap for what?  The Bashrags with the Chorae along with the golden "bomb"seem to imply to me that it was meant as a trap for all the sorcerers, rather than the mundane forces of the Great Ordeal.

Seemingly though, Kellhus realizes the trap and "diffuses" the bomb to some extent, or controls it's detonation to some degree.  I don't think the bomb was supposed to rise of it's own accord...unless, of course, Aurang had it rise up, which is why he shows up then disappears.

[Somnambulist]

Imo, I think it was the best place the Consult had to spring something like that.  They would have known, through the Nonman agents in Ishterebinth, about the stipulation to retake Dagliash.  It was a setup to get the Ordeal to be in one place, more or less, to try to take them out.  I don't know if Kellhus dredging it up made the effect worse or not.  I think the intended target was Kellhus himself, anyone/anything else would be a bonus.  Consult be like 'WTF, even nukes can't kill Dunyain!'

[H]

Well, I don't think the main aim was really to take out Kellhus, I think they know have to know he is beyond the same kind of trap that they got Titirga with, since Kellhus can just teleport.  The rest of the sorcerers though, they'd definitely get caught in the "no Ground in the Well" thing, for sure.

Which brings me to a major question though, what the hell is up with the half-dead then seemingly walking to Golgotterath?

[Blackstone]

just love how The Meat totally changes the character of the Ordeal
---
Saubon dying, reaching for himself OMG!!!

On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?

The Saubon scene: I was appalled. Really appalled in a way I have never been appalled when reading fiction. I went back to TWP and reread that scene again, then back to TGO. It was heartbreaking. Saubon spent half his life following Kellhus, only to be abandoned and damned. Kellhus could have saved him. Any of the witches could have saved him, which leads me to believe they were told to leave Saubon.

On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?

[mrganondorf]

i think that the bashrag were the trap and that the nuke was the Plan C.  there's no way the Consult use that unless they think there is no other option.

while on that subject--the nuke is curious, this is such a bald use of familiar technology.  'weapons of light' still has that old timey magical ring to it, but Bakker is def moving things into a magic vs tech collision

we are that much closer to Bakker saying that Earth is related to Earwa in some way, why else use a nuke?  Bakker could totally have made it a nonmagical bomb described in nonnuclear terms, but he didn't. WHY???

[Somnambulist]

Yeah, lol that got me, too.  I was all WTF?  Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon.  Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent.  If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon.  And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth.  Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through.  If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny.  Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.

Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.

[H]

On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?

I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen.  Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas).  So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.

The Saubon scene: I was appalled. Really appalled in a way I have never been appalled when reading fiction. I went back to TWP and reread that scene again, then back to TGO. It was heartbreaking. Saubon spent half his life following Kellhus, only to be abandoned and damned. Kellhus could have saved him. Any of the witches could have saved him, which leads me to believe they were told to leave Saubon.

I kind of saw it coming, not exactly, but I had a feeling he was going to just get killed or sacrificed.

On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?

Yeah, I'm lost on this one.  All I can think of is that he was really trying to make it clear how much he had been, and is being, used.

i think that the bashrag were the trap and that the nuke was the Plan C.  there's no way the Consult use that unless they think there is no other option.

while on that subject--the nuke is curious, this is such a bald use of familiar technology.  'weapons of light' still has that old timey magical ring to it, but Bakker is def moving things into a magic vs tech collision

we are that much closer to Bakker saying that Earth is related to Earwa in some way, why else use a nuke?  Bakker could totally have made it a nonmagical bomb described in nonnuclear terms, but he didn't. WHY???

The radiation fallout?  What if that egg was actually something like one of the fuel cells from the Ark?

Is this why Kellhus tells them the area is contaminated?

[Blackstone]

Fuel cell. I like it. I wasn't at all bothered by the nuke. They are a spacefaring race of lovers, my friends. The certainly have nuclear technology. In fact, I would says nukes are on the low end of the spectrum of their tech.

On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?

Yeah, I'm lost on this one.  All I can think of is that he was really trying to make it clear how much he had been, and is being, used.

Yeah, this makes sense. But why the revelation? Are we assuming that Kellhus believes Proyas is stronger without his faith? I suppose that's possible. I wonder if, deep deep down, Saubon was jealous that Kellhus didn't fuck him too. ha ha.

On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?

I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen.  Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas).  So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?

[mrganondorf]

Yeah, lol that got me, too.  I was all WTF?  Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon.  Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent.  If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon.  And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth.  Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through.  If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny.  Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.

Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.

just reminded me, i felt like Kellhus was planning on Saubon being more likely to survive Dagliash, not Proyas, but Proyas must do!

so the GO must eat the GO, but that will only be for a while.  there's no way a Second Hoard isn't on the way.  the GO is going to dwindle to like 10k guys who eat dragons, bashrag, and Kellhus and the sorcerers are going to eat Aurang and then the Consult will just be fucked

Eanna is probably like all sranc

[H]

I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen.  Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas).  So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?

Maybe he meant problematic going forward?  The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?

[mrganondorf]

I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen.  Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas).  So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?

Maybe he meant problematic going forward?  The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?

is it problematic or just absent for the time being?

[Blackstone]

I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen.  Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas).  So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?

Maybe he meant problematic going forward?  The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?

is it problematic or just absent for the time being?

It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.

[H]

It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.

Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?

He says:

Seize them, Proyas.  Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword.  Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay.  Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening?  What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."

I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...