What do you believe? (Redux)

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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2018, 04:23:41 am »
I agree that a larger toolkit is a good idea. That's why I keep banging on about cognitive dualism and the need for (at least) two methods of talking about reality and human nature. The "hammer" of mechanistic materialism is as limited as the "hammer" of faith or of philosophy.

At this juncture the thread seems to be getting into the minutia of Bakker territory so I hesitate to repeat views I don't necessarily have the capacity to argue effectively but...

Faith and philosophy don't have the pedigree that "science!" does, does it? Even as someone who pays attention to anomalous human behaviours, I've not yet encountered the priest or philosopher who spake and thus produced a nuclear reaction.
Dear me, Madness, apples and oranges! You're downgrading priests and philosophers because they don't do science? If they did, they'd be scientists! As it happens, a priest named Martin Luther changed the course of human history by nailing tattooed tree pulp to a wooden door. Different tools for different tasks.

Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy. It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

(*Hey, I finally managed to address the question posed by the thread!)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 04:27:01 am by BeardFisher-King »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2018, 05:58:55 am »
Great post, H! I especially like the way that you express the unimportance of "proving" the claims of a religious belief system. To me, what's way more important is to belong to a faith community.
Faith is definitely important for collective organization, coherence etc. and the people who rant against religion are ignorant of the fact that virtually every human community has some kind of shared mythology, whether it's religious or ideological.
That being said, faiths are not equal.
There's a brilliant line in Heretics of Dune where Tylwyth Waff exclaims "The sun is not God!". The implications here are tremendous imo.
No, faiths are not equal, or perhaps we could say that all faiths are equally "nonsensical"; i.e., they all have a resistance to being disproved.

I don't get your point with the quote from HoD, Tleilaxu. Could you expand upon the implications and the context?
It's significant for me because it signifies an abstraction. The sun, an object of worship for pre-historic cultures, is not God. It's just another construct. And from here you could potentially abstract further.
Also, take this line:
Quote
"I can say God, but that is not my God. That is only a noise and no more potent than any other noise."
It is God alone which is the object of worship.
Perhaps the most significant line is this
Quote
No other people have mastered the genetic language as well as have the Bene Tleilax, he reassured himself. We are right to call it "the language of God," for God Himself has given us this great power.
Their faith is a faith that wreaks miracles.

MSJ

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« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2018, 09:51:11 am »
Quote from:  BFK
Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy. It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

:slow clap:

Out of all this conversation, that is the most sensible comment, that I've seen(excuse me I skim over a lot that really just goes over my head), in this thread.

To fully be human we need all of that. Science to dig deep and create things and also expand our knowledge. Thing is a lot of science, is just theories. So how is a theory any different from faith? Its just the way I look at it. Not saying I have the strongest faith, but I do find myself leaning on it at times. And, maybe that's my problem, I should lean on it all the time. I've seen and heard miracles through faith. Giving people the strength to change their lives and such. Thats the same type of proof, if not more, that you find in some fields of science. Arts and philosophy expand our minds and make us more creative. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, BFK.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2018, 11:26:01 am »
How you act give commitment to your belief/ideology? (The Royal You, of course.)

Humans are highly capable of holding and acting on two contradictory ideas (or beliefs) and through the kind of neglect that Bakker always talks about, or other factors, never feel an ounce of that cognitive dissonance.  So, they can actually believe that "all men are created equal" and simultaneously own slaves (to give a historical example).  This can be done through simple neglect, i.e. not actually attending to "the issue," or creative interpretation and deployment of language, among other tactics.

So, you define "men" as males only and gives reason to deny women rights, you operationalize "created equal" to mean literally just that, you start equal, but through various means some people are favored and thus "superior" and others are not.  There are plenty of other ways to spin it as well, to justify nearly anything you want.

So, do actions denote a commitment?  Maybe, but I don't think it's an absolute signifier.  People are highly capable of commitment with no action and action without commitment.
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2018, 01:21:15 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy. It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

:slow clap:

Out of all this conversation, that is the most sensible comment, that I've seen(excuse me I skim over a lot that really just goes over my head), in this thread.

To fully be human we need all of that. Science to dig deep and create things and also expand our knowledge. Thing is a lot of science, is just theories. So how is a theory any different from faith? Its just the way I look at it. Not saying I have the strongest faith, but I do find myself leaning on it at times. And, maybe that's my problem, I should lean on it all the time. I've seen and heard miracles through faith. Giving people the strength to change their lives and such. Thats the same type of proof, if not more, that you find in some fields of science. Arts and philosophy expand our minds and make us more creative. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, BFK.

"If MSJ is with me, who can stand against me?"

 MSJ presents the case for faith well. Faith can give us a way of coping with or even overcoming the bleak truths presented to us by science, as believers who have received a discouraging prognosis from a doctor might confirm.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 01:26:54 pm by BeardFisher-King »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

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« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2018, 02:50:11 pm »
Indeed I don't think anyone has argued that faith/religion/etc. provide no value. There's absolutely no reason for them to exist if no one got anything from them. Its as much a part of our society evolution as anything else, probably more so than most things.

I doubt we'll ever get away from people needing 'a higher order' to make sense of life. Its something that some people need. Strangely though, not something everyone needs.

I find it suspicious that there are so many beliefs, so many forms of religion, spirituality. Suspicious that one's man self-evident truths are so different than another. If there was a 'one true power', I am very confused as to how its possible so few agree on what it is.

The trouble I have, what worries me about the situation, is that there is no means to question. Either you believe or you don't. What's worse though, is that as immovable ideologies clash, death comes swirling down. There doesn't seem room in the world for so many powerful people to claim divine hegemony over the world. Since no one can prove one way or the other, and since no means exist to probe deeply into one's faith from the outside, we're ultimately left with violent outcomes. Either MY god is the true one, or YOUR god is, and whichever one is left standing is correct. Its the worst kind of Might makes Right, and it terrifies me.
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MSJ

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« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2018, 03:11:52 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
"If MSJ is with me, who can stand against me?"

Why.....noone! I AM THE BREAKER OF HORSES AND MEN! MSJ & BFK would just murder the world to find the dissenting voices.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2018, 03:24:38 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
The trouble I have, what worries me about the situation, is that there is no means to question. Either you believe or you don't. What's worse though, is that as immovable ideologies clash, death comes swirling down. There doesn't seem room in the world for so many powerful people to claim divine hegemony over the world. Since no one can prove one way or the other, and since no means exist to probe deeply into one's faith from the outside, we're ultimately left with violent outcomes. Either MY god is the true one, or YOUR god is, and whichever one is left standing is correct. Its the worst kind of Might makes Right, and it terrifies me.

Agree 100%. Me liking BFK's just really hit home to my previous question about us being machines (whoever was touting that line of thinking). We so obviously are not. We are biological beings with feeling, concerns, needs, wants, etc, etc. Those things (faith, science, Art, philosophy), are pretty dann good evidence that we ain't robots homie. It was a precise, concise statement that spoke to me.

One problem I have with your argument about religion is if your smart enough to look, almost all the major religions and minor, stem from ancient religions. Christmas isnt Baby Jesus's B-Day, its the winter solstice. In the end most religions core values are very similar, their stories down right eerily similar. Its just they've changed them up little by little to aid their political needs. In my mind, I do believe that there is only ONE GOD, and its just worshipped in a multitude of ways. Wilshire, we've had a few talks about how we both hate that probably more bad then good comes from religion, its just fact.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2018, 03:25:30 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
"If MSJ is with me, who can stand against me?"

Why.....noone! I AM THE BREAKER OF HORSES AND MEN! MSJ & BFK would just murder the world to find the dissenting voices.
Lmao.. .yeah, I'm right behind you on that "murder the world" mission, MSJ...right behind you and running like hell in the opposite direction!

Still laughing...... ;)
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

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« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2018, 03:30:02 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
Lmao.. .yeah, I'm right behind you on that "murder the world" mission, MSJ...right behind you and running like hell in the opposite direction!

Still laughing...... ;)

Come now...“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds."
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2018, 03:36:51 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
Lmao.. .yeah, I'm right behind you on that "murder the world" mission, MSJ...right behind you and running like hell in the opposite direction!

Still laughing...... ;)

Come now...“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds."


<huff, puff> "What do I believe?" <huff, puff> "I believe that I'm not running fast enough!"
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

MSJ

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« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2018, 03:38:23 pm »
I am half Christian, half Cnaüirist!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2018, 03:41:32 pm »
Dear me, Madness, apples and oranges! You're downgrading priests and philosophers because they don't do science? If they did, they'd be scientists! As it happens, a priest named Martin Luther changed the course of human history by nailing tattooed tree pulp to a wooden door. Different tools for different tasks.

I'm not sure how I've "downgraded" priests or philosophers? There are plenty of "christian scientists" (or any other faith/sect/whichever), Dr. Damadian, for instance, who precipitated MRI and fMRI.

Sure, Martin Luther, MLK Jr., the Suffragists, etc, etc, all effect change within the human sociocognitive arena (or in a certain cognitive ecology, Bakker might say).

It's bothersome being "put into a box," though I suppose it an inevitable consequence of perception and caricature. I find it kind of funny that anyone might suggest I devalue the words of anyone considering that I've been led to my personal strange and arbitrary crux by thinkers of all creeds and ideologies, secular and faithful.

Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy.

I don't think this is accurate. If science was more prevalently accepted than faith or philosophy, we wouldn't be seemingly overwhelmed with sociocultural dysfunction of that type.

It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

(*Hey, I finally managed to address the question posed by the thread!)

Again, I'm really confused as to why I'm being perceived as discounting faith, philosophy, or art as worthwhile practices and pursuits?

:slow clap:

Out of all this conversation, that is the most sensible comment, that I've seen(excuse me I skim over a lot that really just goes over my head), in this thread.

Not trying to detract from BFK's words but I find that terribly insensitive to the previous thread. Understanding or otherwise, I think you'd appreciate giving a deep read to the last incarnation, MSJ.

To fully be human we need all of that. Science to dig deep and create things and also expand our knowledge. Thing is a lot of science, is just theories. So how is a theory any different from faith?

Because priests and philosophers and artists aren't manifesting nuclear explosions.

I was never contesting that these things are important and impactful regarding human behavior. Obviously, all the above effect how we speak and act, negatively or positively.

Its just the way I look at it. Not saying I have the strongest faith, but I do find myself leaning on it at times. And, maybe that's my problem, I should lean on it all the time. I've seen and heard miracles through faith. Giving people the strength to change their lives and such. Thats the same type of proof, if not more, that you find in some fields of science. Arts and philosophy expand our minds and make us more creative. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, BFK.

I don't understand why it has to be either/or. Community yields us positive dividends. Whatever form that takes.

How you act give commitment to your belief/ideology? (The Royal You, of course.)

Humans are highly capable of holding and acting on two contradictory ideas (or beliefs) and through the kind of neglect that Bakker always talks about, or other factors, never feel an ounce of that cognitive dissonance.  So, they can actually believe that "all men are created equal" and simultaneously own slaves (to give a historical example).  This can be done through simple neglect, i.e. not actually attending to "the issue," or creative interpretation and deployment of language, among other tactics.

Ugh... my post should have read "given," which may have changed your response.

People have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion, yes.

So, do actions denote a commitment?  Maybe, but I don't think it's an absolute signifier.  People are highly capable of commitment with no action and action without commitment.

Again, my error in typing may well have prompted a miscommunication here. Actions don't denote a commitment, I don't think. But commitment absolutely prompts a certain percentage of behaviors, prosocial or antisocial.

Creed/ideological commitments very well might engender more prosocial than antisocial behaviors but the damage done by those symptomatic antisocial behaviors seems to cause far more damage overall.

Destruction takes a fraction of the time or effort as creation.

MSJ presents the case for faith well. Faith can give us a way of coping with or even overcoming the bleak truths presented to us by science, as believers who have received a discouraging prognosis from a doctor might confirm.

I suppose I'm more H in this context than otherwise. I lived inside the Roman Catholic story until I was thirteen and was still thinking in terms of a soul as late as seventeen. But I've never experience faith as described by others.

But to these words, BFK, I've basically been permanently switched on by an awareness of my mortality since I was about seven. I don't need faith to forfend any resulting emotional residue. As far as I'm concerned, we seem to all agree that we can do better, here and now.

Indeed I don't think anyone has argued that faith/religion/etc. provide no value. There's absolutely no reason for them to exist if no one got anything from them. Its as much a part of our society evolution as anything else, probably more so than most things.

I doubt we'll ever get away from people needing 'a higher order' to make sense of life. Its something that some people need. Strangely though, not something everyone needs.

I find it suspicious that there are so many beliefs, so many forms of religion, spirituality. Suspicious that one's man self-evident truths are so different than another. If there was a 'one true power', I am very confused as to how its possible so few agree on what it is.

The trouble I have, what worries me about the situation, is that there is no means to question. Either you believe or you don't. What's worse though, is that as immovable ideologies clash, death comes swirling down. There doesn't seem room in the world for so many powerful people to claim divine hegemony over the world. Since no one can prove one way or the other, and since no means exist to probe deeply into one's faith from the outside, we're ultimately left with violent outcomes. Either MY god is the true one, or YOUR god is, and whichever one is left standing is correct. Its the worst kind of Might makes Right, and it terrifies me.

+1

Somewhere between seventeen and twenty-one that was my takeaway. There are so many competing beliefs that our three pounds have cooked up, competing beliefs that people embody until murder and death. I find it very unlikely that we can grok it all, life, the universe, and everything.

I'll continue to err on the side of mundane empathy and compassion.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2018, 04:01:01 pm »
One problem I have with your argument about religion is if your smart enough to look, almost all the major religions and minor, stem from ancient religions. Christmas isnt Baby Jesus's B-Day, its the winter solstice. In the end most religions core values are very similar, their stories down right eerily similar. Its just they've changed them up little by little to aid their political needs.
And there's the rub. Whatever message might have been handed down by whoever, it certainly was revised over time. At this point, who's to say what is the word of god and what has been revised by humans (for better or worse?). So now, since we can't know, and we can't question, anyone can claim the divine right of anything and be, as far as I can tell, equally correct. If we did ever have the writ of god, it was torn asunder millennia ago.

Catholicism itself claims the Anti-Christ will appear to be exactly like Jesus until he starts doing something that's evil (conveniently not clearly defined). So really, anyone who challenges the status quo of the institution can be labeled as the literal devil incarnate and crucified. Far too convenient, it seems to me, to have a mechanism in your religion that allows for absolute, unquestionable power to be maintaining by a single group for the rest of time.

In my mind, I do believe that there is only ONE GOD, and its just worshipped in a multitude of ways. Wilshire, we've had a few talks about how we both hate that probably more bad then good comes from religion, its just fact.
I think that's great, really I do. And, in fact, many major religions splinted off due to one group believing in a latter prophet. Jesus splintering Christianity from Judaism. Muhammad splintering further into Islam (I think?). It does seem to make sense that the hundred that are worshiped are all portions of the Absolute.

If everyone could agree that 'we' (humans) are all worshiping the same entity, that might be helpful. Even more so if we could agree on what he/she/they/it says. But there are so many rules, so many dogmas. So many people who believe so fervently that they'd kill, or themselves die, rather than question or be questioned, that I don't see how humanity can continue to exist along this path.

I am very interested in what BFK/Bolivar/others who seem to have a deep relationship with religion feel about that. Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just seeking opinions from those who think differently than me. I'd not otherwise speak frankly with anyone of one faith or another, so I find this conversation of particular interest.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 04:05:10 pm by Wilshire »
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2018, 06:27:31 pm »
One problem I have with your argument about religion is if your smart enough to look, almost all the major religions and minor, stem from ancient religions. Christmas isnt Baby Jesus's B-Day, its the winter solstice. In the end most religions core values are very similar, their stories down right eerily similar. Its just they've changed them up little by little to aid their political needs.
And there's the rub. Whatever message might have been handed down by whoever, it certainly was revised over time. At this point, who's to say what is the word of god and what has been revised by humans (for better or worse?). So now, since we can't know, and we can't question, anyone can claim the divine right of anything and be, as far as I can tell, equally correct. If we did ever have the writ of god, it was torn asunder millennia ago.

Clearly, then, faith claims of divine inspiration and exclusive truth status are highly problematic from a philosophical standpoint. And taking these faith claims as "hammers" to assault nonbelievers, infidels, science, etc. would be wrong. Imho, faith claims do not "travel" well; again, I'm trying to demarcate the areas where faith is a valid method and where it is not.
Quote


Catholicism itself claims the Anti-Christ will appear to be exactly like Jesus until he starts doing something that's evil (conveniently not clearly defined). So really, anyone who challenges the status quo of the institution can be labeled as the literal devil incarnate and crucified. Far too convenient, it seems to me, to have a mechanism in your religion that allows for absolute, unquestionable power to be maintaining by a single group for the rest of time.
I don't believe this is an accurate representation of Catholic belief; however, it's very possible that some Catholics do believe this. The whole Antichrist/Book of Revelations/End Times matter doesn't rise to the level of Church doctrine, AFAIK. We are simply instructed to "live each day as if it might be our last" for "no man knows the hour of His coming". But I'm just a layman; the authoritative source would be the "Catechism Of The Catholic Church".
Quote

In my mind, I do believe that there is only ONE GOD, and its just worshipped in a multitude of ways. Wilshire, we've had a few talks about how we both hate that probably more bad then good comes from religion, its just fact.
I think that's great, really I do. And, in fact, many major religions splinted off due to one group believing in a latter prophet. Jesus splintering Christianity from Judaism. Muhammad splintering further into Islam (I think?). It does seem to make sense that the hundred that are worshiped are all portions of the Absolute.

If everyone could agree that 'we' (humans) are all worshiping the same entity, that might be helpful. Even more so if we could agree on what he/she/they/it says. But there are so many rules, so many dogmas. So many people who believe so fervently that they'd kill, or themselves die, rather than question or be questioned, that I don't see how humanity can continue to exist along this path.

I find it heartening that Christianity as a worldly political power is a thing of the past. Even the violent post-Reformation conflicts between Protestants and Catholics have ended; perhaps the "Troubles" in Ireland are even over.

Every Good Friday, the Catholic liturgy includes prayers for Christian unity. The collegial, respectful attitude that you foster here at the TSA Forum is an example of what all Christians, indeed, all people should strive for.
Quote

I am very interested in what BFK/Bolivar/others who seem to have a deep relationship with religion feel about that. Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just seeking opinions from those who think differently than me. I'd not otherwise speak frankly with anyone of one faith or another, so I find this conversation of particular interest.
This is marvelous, Wilshire, and I am happy to share ideas and beliefs with you. I, too, am interested in what you and others believe and in what you and others make of my beliefs.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson