Collapse of Object and Subject

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TaoHorror

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« on: June 21, 2021, 03:45:59 pm »
Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 04:10:51 pm »
Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.
One thing that I want to say about  it (it came up on Discord recently) - there is no data points that suggest that there were any Insertants before Nau-Cayuti. Thus, he is the original Insertant.

H

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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 04:20:37 pm »
Well, it was Celmomas II, not necessarily Nau-Cayûti (who was the first No-God) who we know to be a twin.  We don't know if Nau was or was not though.  It could be that he was and somehow some process of twinning divorces the soul from a specific body.  It could also just be that the process little Kel undergoes (hypnotism of sorts?) does the same.  It's totally unclear why makes one "suitable" for No-God operation.  But it must be rather uncommon.  Just being a twin seems unlikely, given how many people were stuffed in there over the years.

If just being a twin was sufficient, it likely would have works just by blind luck.  However, being a twin might be necessary, but not quite sufficient.  What the sufficient condition might further be is a subsequent sort of divorce between the soul and (possibly, maybe) the larger ethical realm (read: Spirit, the Soul, the Outside).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 04:30:53 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2021, 04:38:36 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.
One death wouldn't create a topos, though. Moreover, Kelmomas doesn't exhibit any topoi-like qualities, if anything, he exhibits just the opposite.

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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 04:40:57 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.

I am not sure a topoi is the right parallel though.  A topoi bridges the Inside and Outside, the material world and the ethical realm of Spirit.  The No-God sort of does the "reverse" (or whatever method of negation would be the right term).  It closes the Inside to the Outside, isolating the material words from that ethical realm altogether.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2021, 11:09:09 pm »
We talked some more about this on the Discord - or rather I babbled to myself this weekend  :-[

There the whole lineage thing that combines human and Nonman blood, resulting in a "Two Hearted" ancestor of Kellhus.

From Knife of Many Hands there seems to be a parallel between two hearts and two personalities if not two souls.

This seems to relate to something the No-God requires to get started again, perhaps having two souls in one body creates some "flaw" or "singularity" that the Ark + NG can exploit to shut the world?

Another question is whether the Outside is made of "stuff" and can be manipulated in the same way the Inside has been manipulated using the reductonist principles of the Tekne.