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Messages - Monkhound

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106
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling
« on: October 05, 2016, 07:06:49 pm »
It also emphasises in a very clear way what is important for which POV. I find it quite elegant really. A lot of the flavour for each POV comes from the choice of language and grammar used to describe what the POV sees and experiences: Kelmomas will have shorter sentences with a different focus than Akka, for example.

107
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: October 05, 2016, 06:52:13 pm »
People think that those that mimara sees as particularly damned, like Ironsoul, are in fact ciphrang.

Indeed. And I'm not sure that is a correct interpretation.
Before TGO, I was under the impression as well. But despite the description by Mimara being "I have never seen anyone so damned", I'm almost positive both Cnaïur and the Captain are not Ciphrang as such. Just men so much consumed by their passions/emotions that it eclipses all their other deeds, and them therefore being lives of choice (literally) for the "Sons of this place" as described in the Head on a Pole passage.
The other scalpers were on their way to be the same, but we're killed before reaching that stage.
I also think the Meat is having the same effect (that of a catalyst) on the Men of the Ordeal: Emotions come much more to the surface because of it. That is quote clearly described in TGO. Maybe the Qirri had the same effect on Akka and Mimara. It's suggested multiple times born in WLW and TGO.

108
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: October 05, 2016, 09:13:16 am »
Oh, cunning!
I guess Saubon as Gilgaől, based on him being the Battle Celebrant in TWP and the few accounts on the Unification Wars?

109
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: October 04, 2016, 03:52:03 pm »
I think the key though is the indivisibility that the Watcher-Watched loop provides. As in the quote I had above, the ciphrang seek to tear him apart, he cannot be.  Because of the Head on the Pole, in other words, because he can recursively look back and in that looking, he is a loop, with no end.  In other words, a circle, so there are no gaps, no holds, no purchase for an agency to tear him away from his body.

Very interesting idea about the indivisible watcher-watched loop.
I see a parallel with Kelmomas's and Samarmas's gazes locked into each other before being separated by a droning voice repeating the same sentence over and again.

110
The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor
« on: October 02, 2016, 09:17:40 am »
Also, the passage from TGO says "Three fingers had been lopped from his right hand."  Lopped, not merely missing.  I think there was also mention of scars (supporting the lopped off description).  If it was congenital, there wouldn't be scars. 

Anyway, in one of her sections in TJE (I think), Esmi reminisces she could tell relatively early how 'human' her children were (or weren't).  Pretty sure a Dunyain assessor, whose job it is to determine such things, could tell pretty much instantly if one of their kids was defective or not.

IMO

Weren't the scars about Korringhus? I remember the "Cuts and cuts and cuts" being about him, anyway.

111
The Great Ordeal / Re: Kellhus's Visions
« on: October 01, 2016, 02:39:29 pm »
It's almost as if the Cishaurim (not sure about the Fanim in general) were the antithesis of the Dunyain:
- Dunyain are all about reason, trying to breed out emotion.
- Cishaurim magic relies heavily on emotions, rather than reason. They are also the prophets/priests of the Solitary God, if I'm not mistaken.
Kellhus had this figured out in TTT upon seeing his father and thereafter setup the stage for Meppa's extreme emotions, for a purpose that remains to be seen. I expect such powerful emotions and Water are necessary for something to do with The Plan.

I get the impression the Solitary God 'shed' his various aspects and in doing that, created the gods/demons/whatever, keeping only the essential aspect, being emotions. The Gods in turn seem to lack this, and possibly need to feed on mortals who die. It would explain the world as a granary passage, as well as explain why the Fanim view the Hundred as demons. But I can't back this up, apart from the Head on a Pole passage whare we see things feeding on mortal emotions, as well as the damnation views by Mimara.
It may be that the Solitary God is not supposed to be read as "the Only" God, but as "the one from which all other gods came". Solitary apparently is also a word for a hermit/recluse, which is another similarity to the Dunyain/Ishual.

I know I quote the song about Anarlu's head often, but I still think there's a link between that and the story of the God(s).

112
The Great Ordeal / Re: Kellhus's Visions
« on: October 01, 2016, 05:45:21 am »
The head on the pole has to be Onkis though, right? The similarity to Onkis's aspect (according to the wiki) is just too close to be otherwise.

You would think that, but Bakker said it was not. Also, said the Nonmen did not shatter the God to create the 100, The God did.

Interestingly, the passage from the Book of Fane that starts the Momemn prologue mentions as much.

113
The Great Ordeal / Re: Kellhus's Visions
« on: September 30, 2016, 04:24:57 pm »
Quote from: H
Now, cast it forward, Moe is dead, Kellhus has averted that future, so the vision is different now.  The war is somewhat beyond that of simply Kellhus versus the Consult.  Now, the stakes are higher, or at least different, it isn't just about averting the No-God, it's about warring against the Hundred.  It's about ending damnation all together, without the No-God.  It's about Kellhus being the Zero-God, the Absolute.

It reminds of a few things:
- The game-changing rules of Benjuka, which is mentioned regularly, at least in TPoN
- Forks becoming void because the cause had become impossible, as the Synthese mentions to the Skin-Spy in WLW (when talking about respecting all prophecies) , and the general way of working of the Probability Trance.

Quote from: H
In TGO, Kellhus tells us that the Voice is not sane.  He tells us he doesn't trust it.  But he still listens.  Why?  Because what it tells him is correct.  What it tells him from the future happens.  Kellhus directs himself from the future.  Before and After is sane.  The voice is beyond that.  We've asked ourselves time and again, why this, or that?  What allow Akka to live?  Why allow Fanayal to live?  Why the Great Ordeal?  Why everything with Proyas?

I've had about the same feeling in the Throne Room scene with the two scenes where Kellhus lives and dies, but through the perspective of Kelmomas. The sentence "Something's wrong" uttered by the Voice is the main cause for that. It feels like Kelmomas is being guided in the same way as Kellhus, though I can't pinpoint how.

I'm not sure there is no relation between the head on a pole and the visions though. In my view, both the head on a pole and the visions have to do with death.
For the first, we know Kellhus starts having visions and hearing the voice after either almost dying himself, or the death of Serwë. I was not aware of the meaning Zero for Cypher, thanks!
For the latter we have the information that the Voice's first words come after the death of Samarmas and are something like "took you long enough".

114
The Great Ordeal / Re: Kellhus's Visions
« on: September 30, 2016, 06:33:43 am »
Interesting idea.
Quote from: MSJ
Also, Kellhus is seated in front of the tree, can anyone say a head on a pole behind you?
Clearly. The tree is also a recurring theme in TWP and TTT (visions, the Circumfix, Kiyudea).
The Circumfixion is possibly the moment where Kellhus's head is raised on the pole (= he is been sacrificed) Anarlu-style. But how this works, I have no clue.

115
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
« on: September 29, 2016, 04:23:34 pm »
I've just started a reread of the book and wondered:
The Circumfix Throne room is undoubtedly an important location, but I was struck by the similarity of the reunion scenes of Esmenet with Kelmomas (beginning) and Esmenet with Kellhus (end).

Also, the passage from Esmenet's POV shows:
- Her in a sort of  hallucination which I found somewhat resembling a trance caused by her panic/fear of maybe not finding Kelmomas again
- The mention of "a fraction " in the POV of a non-Dunyain

Also noteworthy is the extract from the Book of Fane at the start of the chapter, relating to how One became Many (99 or 100?).

Any thoughts?

116
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« on: September 29, 2016, 04:09:56 pm »
Touché!
Although the passage stands out more than other scenes involving him.

117
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« on: September 29, 2016, 03:52:41 pm »
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.

Such an epic moment when Aurang says that  :D

118
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Mimara
« on: September 26, 2016, 03:44:24 pm »
Well, if we are to believe Koringhus, it is different than the view from a God, because it is the view from the God.  This is why it is the God of Gods.  It is what precedes the Gods.  What the Gods were divided from.  What they are built from.  This is why he surmises the Zero-God.

Also it would fit the perfectly as the embodiment of The Darkness that Comes Before in the form of the head on a pole that only Kellhus could discover. As much is suggested in one of the Aörsi passages.

119
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS
« on: September 24, 2016, 07:52:25 pm »
There is Salvation, Koringhus found it and Mimara is Holy.

That would mean the Absolute is Salvation and therefore holy.
I'm inclined to agree, since Korringhus, the boy (referred to as the most blessed fraction on page 408. Italics are not mine) and the hundredth stone must be linked to Kellhus somehow.

120
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Embarrassing Question
« on: September 24, 2016, 02:01:31 pm »
This is how I read the passage:
The way the Narindar executes Thelliopa, is by knowing it has already happened (refer to the passageof her death).
He attempts the same with Kellhus, but this fails either because Kellhus's probability trance forsees and acknowledges the possibility as the most likely fork, or because of Kelmomas's (warning?) scream... or both.

But in the end Kellhus lives.

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