[Blackstone]

I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing. My list in no particular order:

The whale mothers
Saubon's damnation and the link to the vision on Mangedda
Related - Kellhus abandoning Saubon at Dagliash
Kellhus banging Proyas (not for homophobic reasons, it just strikes me as disturbing what with all the mental anguish and the fact that Proyas has shown no propensity toward gay sex--I doubt sexual desire matters to a Dunyain)

 

[H]

Well, at the moment of reading it, the Kellhus-Proyas scene, because I was absolutely not expecting it.

After the fact, it is obviously the whale-mothers, but we had theories like that floating around to gird us from the real impact.

[H]

I had put it out of my mind, but the revelation of what Inrilatas did to Theli is also quite appalling and definitely jarred me.

[Wilshire]

The decent into the depths of Ishterebinth.  Exploding pigs and all those poor, crazy nonmen.

[Garet Jax]

The decent into the depths of Ishterebinth.  Exploding pigs and all those poor, crazy nonmen.

This.

I feel that this chapter is Bakker in his prime.  I was telling Wilshire, Madness, and MG the other day, that this portion of the book literally scared me.  I could not stop reading though... 

Also, as Blackstone mentioned, the rape of Proyas was so unexpected that I felt truly sorry for Proyas. 

Those two parts of the book haunt me the most.

[Madness]

I've not partaken in this topic because my output regarding the clarity of the narrative can only be skewed.

But... I wasn't so much appalled by much of the narrative as I had a good many ASMR (Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response) moments.

Like when Gilgoal calls to Celmomas. When Saccarees walks alone over the Horde. When Kellhus tells the Ordeal to run. When Oirunas comes to confront Nin'Ciljiras.

I will say though, overall, this is easily the darkest Bakker book short of Neuropath .

[Hirtius/Pansa]

Was rereading some choice bits of TWP for some resonance regarding Saubon.  The episode on the Plains of Mengedda is fraught with so much more significance.  And!—and in Caraskand when Saubon is ranting to Kellhus about he'd choose damnation and hell a thousand times over if he could only rule as king for a day. Fuck.

[Madness]

This reflects my thoughts on Cil-Aujas and Ishterebinth. The aforementioned Saubon parts both become more poignant, somehow complementarily. As does the Slog through the dead Mansion with Cleric...

So cool.

[H]

Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?

If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...

[profgrape]

After two reads, the part that sticks with me is Sibowal deciding walk across the bridge of Sranc corpses.  It was somehow both horrifying and beautiful at the same time.

[H]

After two reads, the part that sticks with me is Sibowal deciding walk across the bridge of Sranc corpses.  It was somehow both horrifying and beautiful at the same time.

That seems so surreal to me, I couldn't really feel much but wonder...

So, am I really the only one that felt for Theli?  Haha, I guess I really did have a thing for her...

[Somnambulist]

Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?

If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...

If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.

1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.

2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe?  He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?).  Dunno.

3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever.  He ended it, or allowed it to end.  There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her.  She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).

Just some random thoughts.  Don't know if any of them hold water.

BTW, I felt for Thelli, too.  Her's was the saddest tale to me.

[H]

Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?

If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...

If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.

1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.

2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe?  He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?).  Dunno.

3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever.  He ended it, or allowed it to end.  There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her.  She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).

Just some random thoughts.  Don't know if any of them hold water.

I'm kind of thinking some permutation of 3, because he walks away from her before the whole thing falls.  Now, so, why did he walk away?  Not just talk her and teleport away?

Could it be the cryptic mention of a Tear nearly missing him hindered his ability to teleport, meaning he had to talk away to do it?  He could still have easily picked her up and walked away with her.  But he didn't.

Then there is the whole weirdness with the repeating of her saying "Catch," a replay of when she threw the peach to him.  "I let it happen" is a reference to the fact that she knew the assassin would kill her and she still allowed him in?

BTW, I felt for Thelli, too.  Her's was the saddest tale to me.

Yeah, me too, because it is seemingly so senseless.  Caprice for caprice's sake, almost.  But not really, because we know that Inrilatas was just "heaping damnation" onto himself, his view of the Shortest Path.  Still though, goes to show the power of crimes and then the great power, as we see it, of crimes against children.  She really just had no chance.

[profgrape]

Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?

If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...

If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.

1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.

2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe?  He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?).  Dunno.

3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever.  He ended it, or allowed it to end.  There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her.  She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).

Just some random thoughts.  Don't know if any of them hold water.

I'm kind of thinking some permutation of 3, because he walks away from her before the whole thing falls.  Now, so, why did he walk away?  Not just talk her and teleport away?

Could it be the cryptic mention of a Tear nearly missing him hindered his ability to teleport, meaning he had to talk away to do it?  He could still have easily picked her up and walked away with her.  But he didn't.

Then there is the whole weirdness with the repeating of her saying "Catch," a replay of when she threw the peach to him.  "I let it happen" is a reference to the fact that she knew the assassin would kill her and she still allowed him in?

The bit about the Tear didn't make any sense to me.  I wonder if this was the WLW conflating his experience of Esmi narrowly missing Meppa with the Chorae.  Kelmomas' POV certainly doesn't suggest that a Chorae was involved with that scene.

The thing that's really killing me, however, is where the broken sword fits in.  Was that just part of a future that was disrupted by Kelmomas' intervention?

[H]

The bit about the Tear didn't make any sense to me.  I wonder if this was the WLW conflating his experience of Esmi narrowly missing Meppa with the Chorae.  Kelmomas' POV certainly doesn't suggest that a Chorae was involved with that scene.

The thing that's really killing me, however, is where the broken sword fits in.  Was that just part of a future that was disrupted by Kelmomas' intervention?

Hmm, did she say "catch" when she threw the Chorae at Meppa?  Or for that matter, when she threw the peach to the Narindar?

The more we go over the scene, the less sense it makes really.  The sword?  I have no idea, where did it go?  It was mentioned once and not again. basically.  I am guessing Kel messed that up by shouting?