Earwa > The Great Ordeal
[TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
profgrape:
In the author Q&A, RSB wrote this:
--- Quote ---[...]the boundaries between the World and the Outside can also wear then with individuals, and not simply places. Those souls that are too strong to eat, that go on to become Ciphrang, sometimes begin the transition before they kick the bucket.
--- End quote ---
This begs the question: how does one develop a soul that's "too strong to eat"?
We have a couple examples of souls that seem to be on the verge of becoming Ciphrang; Kosoter, perhaps, and almost certainly, Cnauir. This suggests that a "strong" soul is one that's committed numerous, horrible acts of violence. But wouldn't his imply that those who are more damned are also better positioned for power in the hellish afterlife?
As a side question, can good acts cause one to be "too strong to eat", perhaps leading to one become an angelic Ciphrang?
Wilshire:
Indomitable will is also a common trait between those two. Or should I say indomitable conviction ;) . Maybe its a combination of both?
By that logic, either Will or Evil, seems there might be a good handful of Dunyain ciphrang-gods out there? Also, Conphas?
Most head's of major Nations/States might qualify for that if . Harweel. Psatma.
But, yes, the linchpin of the discussion is 'how'.
I like 'good'/'altruistic'/'moral' as leading to angelic Ciphrang :). Amusing that none are around though, eh? Earwa isn't a nice place.
profgrape:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on February 07, 2017, 05:35:41 pm ---Indomitable will is also a common trait between those two. Or should I say indomitable conviction ;) . Maybe its a combination of both?
By that logic, either Will or Evil, seems there might be a good handful of Dunyain ciphrang-gods out there? Also, Conphas?
Most head's of major Nations/States might qualify for that if . Harweel. Psatma.
But, yes, the linchpin of the discussion is 'how'.
I like 'good'/'altruistic'/'moral' as leading to angelic Ciphrang :). Amusing that none are around though, eh? Earwa isn't a nice place.
--- End quote ---
Whatever it is, it has to be rare, right? Maybe conviction that is entirely self-motivated? Meaning if your conviction was inspired by a Wordly agent (like Kellhus), it wouldn't strengthen your soul. But if it was a self-moving quality, it did?
Another interesting thread: if strong souls can become Ciphrang, does that also mean they, like the Gods, see all of time simultaneously? I'm wondering if the person who Kellhus sees in his visions is his Ciphrang-self. Maybe the Ciphrang-self is the "head on a pole", a soul so strong that it's somehow anchored in the Outside?
Wilshire:
Definetly rare. Self-moving in some way seems like a good idea, nice and discriminating, otherwise there would be too many big outside entities.
Also I imagine it as one of those games were you start out as a small creature, and can eat everything that's smaller than you, each thing you eat you become bigger. Meanwhile, everything else follows the same rules. So, even a 'big' soul is relative. Maybe big enough to consume the scraps left over by the huge ciphrang-gods. The longer you live and survive in the outside, the more power you gain. Then you get so big you can start to exert some kind of local objective-subjective reality time/space. Bigger and bigger, until you can rip through the barrier into the Inside and influence people via dreams, send avatars, etc...
--- Quote from: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 06:39:03 pm ---Another interesting thread: if strong souls can become Ciphrang, does that also mean they, like the Gods, see all of time simultaneously? I'm wondering if the person who Kellhus sees in his visions is his Ciphrang-self. Maybe the Ciphrang-self is the "head on a pole", a soul so strong that it's somehow anchored in the Outside?
--- End quote ---
Depends on what the Gods are. I maintain that they are just bigger Ciphrang, so I would say yes, they get the collapsed-time-sense thing.
profgrape:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on February 07, 2017, 06:57:59 pm ---Depends on what the Gods are. I maintain that they are just bigger Ciphrang, so I would say yes, they get the collapsed-time-sense thing.
--- End quote ---
Yes, the way they're described in TGO, "Other Sons", makes it sound like the Gods are just uber-Ciphrang.
--- Quote ---[...]where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless[...]
--- End quote ---
That sure fits with what Wilshire describes, that the Gods are just those who receive the greatest portion of souls. Also very interesting that the narrator has "always" been there -- lends weight to the idea that Kellhus is/has a powerful, perhaps even God-like, Ciphrang.
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