Earwa > The Unholy Consult
Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
SmilerLoki:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't call it consensus - it's so far one person's head canon, which other people seemed to for some reason accept without further examination. I consider it just one of several possible scenarios. Wutteat can just as well be an advanced program of the Ark. Even more so, he refers to some unknown party as "his makers", which, considering all the Tekne aspects at play, goes more against the idea of his natural origins than for it.
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---I disagree completely, but we're reading the same stuff so there's nothing else to say for this one. IMO, complex social behaviors indicate an extraordinary level of intelligence, well beyond anything we see of the wracu - which are closer to bashrag/sranc though maybe a bit smarter.
--- End quote ---
Wracu seem rather fond of pathos, but otherwise pretty intelligent. Their communication reminds me of Aurang, only he just thinks about his genitals and all the things he would like to do with them, while Wracu prefer to vocalize their inner monologue - although with more focus on devouring (it's the size thing, I'd venture).
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
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It's more that Bakker's comments seem to imply that - he outright states that Wracu have souls, that they have metaphysical interaction with Chorae, that their fire is neither sorcerous nor mundane, that they might be living topoi, etc.
H:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---Sranc aren't as senseless as you seem to think though. For example, they have language, culture, complex social structures. They also are used as Elju for Nonmen, which indicates a huge capacity for not just memory and recall, but also communication.
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Unfortunately, we just don't have enough information one way or the other. The way Skrafa talks, seems to imply to me he "gets it" and might comprehend paradox, but never explicitly says it. That Wutteät like does have a soul tells us little to nothing, since the other Wracu are clearly derivative of him, meaning we have no idea what aspects might be passed on or not.
In Eärwa I think a soul is very tied to Heideggerian Dasein, that is, Being-there. What does this mean? It is Being for something for which the question of Being has Meaning. Sranc certainly have language and so they likely understand Being to some degree, but for whatever reason, they do not comprehend the question of Being. That is, there is no Meaning to Being, it just simply is. Skin-spies seem about the same, they comprehend that they have Being (that is, that they exist) but they do not question the nature of this Being and when asked, (to unravel the paradoxical nature of Being that would always ceding to Becoming) they cannot comprehend it.
So we are just left to guess how much of Wutteät the Wracu are. The answer is really anything you want though, there is no evidence one way or the other. There also is no logic, Eärwan biology is somewhat like the real world, but ultimately not. Wracu could have any number of souls, from zero to plus or minus infinity, despite, or in light, of that making no sense whatsoever.
Wilshire:
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on October 13, 2021, 04:39:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't call it consensus - it's so far one person's head canon, which other people seemed to for some reason accept without further examination.
--- End quote ---
Wutteat says something about traveling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on October 13, 2021, 04:39:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm ---All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
--- End quote ---
It's more that Bakker's comments seem to imply that - he outright states that Wracu have souls, that they have metaphysical interaction with Chorae, that their fire is neither sorcerous nor mundane, that they might be living topoi, etc.
--- End quote ---
I'm always of the opinion that Bakker's comments aren't particularly reliable or even generally useful. If its not in the books, and we've got 7, then its speculation. Interesting topics for conversation maybe, to try and fit what he says into the books, but hardly evidence imo.
SmilerLoki:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on October 15, 2021, 11:52:07 am ---Wutteat says something about traviling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".
--- End quote ---
Aurang uses the same terminology in regards to traveling on the Ark and the Inchoroi's many genocides, so that's not in favor of Wutteat being some kind of unique space dragon - just another creature of the Ark.
H:
Yeah, I mean it's ambiguous. In fact, I think I want to revise my position. It probably makes a bit more sense to me now if Wutteät is another Ark-made thing. Post-Fall though they don't have Ark to guide the development and can only work from the existing Wutteät pattern. I'd still guess Wracu have souls though, even as derivative as likely they are.
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