The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => Literature => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:54:31 pm
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In one of the ThreePoundBrain threads I raved about this book and encouraged Bakker and everyone else to read it.
Instead of spoiling it, I'll just assure you that it's both a great piece of fiction and incredibly relevant to the concerns of the ThreePoundBrain crowd.
It's basically an elaboration of BBT, only it's not Bakker writing it, it's a Japanese SF author who died in 2009 and had likely never read Bakker. The novel was finished as Itoh lay dying in a hospital ward from cancer. It was the last work of a young talent that sadly left us too soon.
I really really want to get some discussion going on this book. It presents a real challenge, not to BBT per se, but to the pre existing cultural metaphysical defaults that unconsciously affect our interpretation of it.
To be blunt - Harmony is how the other side of the planet grapples with the same reality that Bakker stumbles across. There's no 'heroic lone overman grapples with the cursed knowledge" shtick, there's no weeping for our precious souls. Instead there's a more, shall we say, practical engagement with the problem.
And this is what you'd expect from a culture that never believed in the self in the first place. Isn't the delusion of the self one of BBTs main findings? How come we never talk about the fact that eastern metaphysics, while being no match for science, at least never fell for many of the impoverishing delusions that we in the west are crying over losing?
I might be being a bit rude here, and maybe I've made a fool of myself and there is something about BBT that I don't understand and so this is a false equivalence. Either way, it's still a great novel that's worth discussing. I'm excited to see what you all, and hopefully Bakker, will make of it!
The kindle edition is on Amazon.
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I'll put it onto my list of looking into's.
The TV show 'QI' suggested eastern culture would have gotten alot further if they hadn't had such awesome pottery - if they hadn't, they'd have to have worked with glass alot more - made glasses - made microscopes - etc. They were so far ahead that if their china wasn't so great, they'd be even further ahead.
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I'll also work to pick it up. I remember reading your comment and it being harder for me to find here.
And this is what you'd expect from a culture that never believed in the self in the first place. Isn't the delusion of the self one of BBTs main findings? How come we never talk about the fact that eastern metaphysics, while being no match for science, at least never fell for many of the impoverishing delusions that we in the west are crying over losing?
I think you tread many of your own connotations here, james. People maintain a variety of conscious states the world over, both imposed on them by their culture and their history and come to by self-practice. I've noticed Buddhist states get mentioned regularly at TPB. Still curious as to what you were alluding to outside of Harmony?
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Well there is an undeniable trend in western culture over the past few decades towards eastern ways of thinking. Many scientists, quantum physicists for example, say that the Buddhist view of reality is closer to their findings than anything else.
Buddhists were always suspicious about the self, they knew it was a fiction from day one. They are also less trusting of the sense data of consciousness. It's ironic that it was the West, with its blind faith in the self and empiricism, that came to create the science that undid its own previous religious assumptions.
I think the reason that BBT is so hard on us is because we grow up in a culture that doesn't even need to prohibit discussion of the impermanence and falsehood of the self because it can't imagine it. We view our selves as on a progressive path towards greater and greater maturity and enlightenment, yet BBT implies this is crap. We thought we were special, transcendent beings who step outside nature, and for whom external reality is an instrument to be shaped by our will. Yet if I read BBT right, these processes are all due to external causes.
Even if you're not a creationist, you still likely believe in the religious concept of creation without knowing it. Think of all the secularists who extort the beauty of art and culture, the way we mythologize the imagined selves who produce it. Yet BBT implies that our notions of authoring anything are a load of crap. There is no originality, and our thoughts are not our own, they are in fact sourced from our brains and the network of language and memes that circulate. We are deluded all the way down. It just seems obvious that for Buddhists and other eastern traditions, these pompous follies that we cherish were not there in the first place. That's why I think it's so humiliating for us, because we think of ourselves as superior to the rest of the world, yet our greatest accomplishments in science and technics are now undoing our very identities. It's like developing the worlds greatest pistol then shooting yourself in the foot with it.
As further proof of this here's a post that Graham Harman made:
A blog reader claims to have found this in a Japanese travel guide to the United States:
Popular “Polite Fictions” in the U.S.
– We’re all equals.
- You are interesting.
- You and I are individuals.
- We’re having fun.
Not only is that hilarious, it's further evidence that our culture is based on assumptions that are unique to us, not universal, and frankly bullshit. Obviously, I am not saying that Buddhism is the truth or any match for scientific inquiry. But it does prove that humanity can and has lived without so many of the culturally specific quirks that BBT does away with.
We can bend over backwards trying to prove that science is now telling us how to be interesting happy equal individuals but it's utter crap. Our culture developed the tools that humiliate and destroy its most cherished narcissistic fallacies! I think this is delightful and just want to rub salt in the wound!
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Well said, James. The crushing blow for me is that, even with the illusion laid bare in front of me, I cannot hope to own my thoughts.
'You cannot see the darkness that precedes your thoughts, but unlike most souls you know it exists. You appreciate how rarely you are the author of what you say and do…' He raised his shackled hands for a clap that never came. 'I'm impressed, Mother. You understand this trick the world calls a soul.'
What can I do but embrace the illusion and enjoy the ride? 8-)
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So has no one bothered to read this?
Come on people! It's the closet thing to BBT in fiction you'll find that's not written by Bakker himself!
I can't be the only one fucked up enough to secretly cherish the world depicted in this novel as utopian even though it was intended to depict the opposite?
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I went looking again yesterday based on your post, james, and I believe I will have to order it online. Also, I discovered that this isn't the only book by Project Itoh?
It still looks interesting.
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I don't know why they use the name 'Project' Itoh, his name was Satoshi Itoh. 'Project' I think is in reference to the English translators, but it makes it look like Project was his first name.
He wrote a Metal Gear Solid novel, a novel about the war on terror set in the future called Genocidal Organ and other novels, shorts and essays that have yet to be translated. He died of cancer shortly before completing Harmony.
I hope people aren't put off by it and think its some sort of half serious YA sci fi or something because it is more than that. It is probably the first novel to try and imagine what the state will look like after the technology that coincides with a mass cultural awakening to something like BBT. Obviously it is only a novel and you do get the impression that it was finished more hastily than it might have been had the author not been on his deathbed. I still can't recommend it highly enough!
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I'd have thought the use of the word 'project' is a dehumanising one, in line with the BBT-like theme.
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In one review, I read that the </Project Itoh> is an homage to the hypercode (?) within Harmony? True, james?
I find it very interesting that he wrote the novelization of MGS4 - probably my favorite video game series of all time; I actually beat Sons of Liberty in Japan, in Japanese, as I was living there when it first came out. Genocidal Organ sounds interesting as well. I wonder if there is an omnibus version of Satoshi Itoh's works forthcoming?
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Yep, there's code interspersed throughout the book. (I don't code so it has less meaning to me).
An excerpt:
<recollection>
I want to dance on the grave of those kind, healthy people
</recollection>
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As for an omnibus, that depends on how well his books in English are selling. I know there are collections of essays and shorts that have not been translated. Hopefully someday we will get to read them.
If only this guy had read Neuropath or lived long enough to comment on the BBT posts!
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Lol, or I could just demand that my sister teach me Japanese and read them in the original tongue :). I promise, james, one day I shall find and read his books.
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I don't get what's taking you all so long, it's right there on Amazon! Maybe you all have jobs or something.
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For years and years, I avoided most kinds of online payment and credit cards as the ease and convenience is addictive. It was only when Bakker started accepting donations that I actually got a paypal account linked to my debit and recently got a Canada Post reloadable Visa to book some plane tickets.
However, I maintain a strict policy of only ordering books that I absolutely cannot find anywhere because otherwise I would literally spend all my money on books (as it was up until a month ago, I was spending almost $100 on books, in person, at bookstores, every couple weeks - I can't afford more than that).
That said, I'm actually going to order it after the weekend. I'll have it soon, james - I can't speak for the rest of these lurkers ;).
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Let me preface this with a Lol: I'm a person who likes to embody and express my emotions.
So I went into Chapters today after my move back to town and found Itoh's MGS4 novelization on the shelf, all alone. I read a few paragraphs (realizing it is a translation) and found myself liking the ad-lib knowledge-drops Itoh had added to the game's story (reflecting real-world history; one the first page he mentions that Hitler instituted the first nationwide tobacco ban in history - though he couldn't keep his soldiery from indulging). In the afterword by Hideo Kojima (the series creator), I learned that, apparently, Itoh and I have a common love for the MGS series: Itoh ran a fansite for MGS, wrote many poignant articles on the games, and, ultimately, met Kojima shortly before the release of MGS2. Kojima is a very private man concerning his fandom yet Itoh seemed to touch his heart and when Itoh was first diagnosed with cancer in 2001, Kojima who'd made a game of following Itoh's fansite to ensure he was satisfying his #1 fan, went to visit him in the hospital.
I won't relate the entire tale (of a few pages) - though it involves Itoh promising Kojima he wouldn't die until MGS2 was released - but as I sat there quietly crying in between the rows of books finishing Kojima's afterword, I realized I'd been introduced to an author, another soul, who will satisfy me in a very specific and personal fashion (Itoh's own afterword simply cemented that feeling).
Needless to say, I left with Itoh's MGS4 novelization and an order confirmation-slip for Harmony. No doubt I will be purchasing Genocidal Organ soon enough.
Thanks for your persistent insistence, james. Cheers.
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That's very humbling man, glad I was able to make that connection for you.
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MGS was awesome. It was also nice reminding myself of my reading speed - read non-fiction all the time and I begin to think my reading comprehension sucks. Harmony is in my mailbox for when I get home from work tonight. Thanks again, james.
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I read this book earlier this year and It literally blew my mind :) Itoh touches upon so many aspects of human progress,but I will not spoil anything for Mr Madness who is about to get started. I will mention my favorite detail about his version of the future which was the visual information pop-ups over peoples heads ;D I can totally see that one coming,since humans seem to be pretty obsessed with sharing intimate details about anything to anyone these days(facebook,etc). Regarding BBT I haven`t read much about that theory yet,so I leave that discussion to those who know what they are talking about ;)
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Almost done.
You might have warned me it was closer to Neuropath than simply TPB, james, ;).
We've definitely been robbed of a blossoming talent.
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Done.
Needless to write but SPOILERS TO FOLLOW:
I want to respond to specifics from your opening post, james, but I wanted to sketch some of my experiences in reading.
Firstly, Itoh is tremendously socially conscious. While this might be an inborn cultural trait, Harmony struck me specifically because I've lived in a low-income household, in Japan, for the better part of two years. Contemporaneously, I'm not sure without an insight into Japanese culture that I would have appreciated the weight of his themes.
That in mind, there are three major themes I'd like to point how that have little to do with humanity sans consciousness a la Harmony or BBH.
Killing with Kindness:
This is not so much a joke. The culture of Japan is almost explicitly that of the worldwide Admedistration of Harmony. I've often encountered a seemingly prevalent opinion that "speaking your mind" is anathema to Japanese culture. This might reflect the sort of selves nurtured by their social consciousness, however, it likely reflects the idea that, to the Japanese, politeness is a self-imposed social state, rather than an individual stance. Very often, I felt like I was living in Vanilla Sky, not because extremes of self-expression don't exist or that conglomerate selves don't manifest expression, but because the cultural millieu is so conditioned into the majority of society. And it can seem suffocating! Like I was always wishing for a pride parade (not that I would have made that commentary at twelve ;)).
But, food for thought, perhaps, this is what Itoh and james were trying to highlight. Maybe these are kinds of battle inherently manifest between self-consciousness (individualism) and conglomerate selves (collectivism); there is a definite hierarchy of care in Japan, so I'm appropriating a term to highlight the fact that some individuals, a married woman for instance, must satisfy so many others first, before herself. When parents need palliative care, the onus is on the wife to organize everything first for her husband's parents, then her own, then her husband, and finally herself. They fulfill this like Western parents are "expected" to pay college tuition (that's a laugh ;)).
Rape Myth:
This is somewhat a blanket heading on my part but bear with me. It's argued that our pornography can dictate gender roles - in Western society, this manifests in the dominant/submissive dichotomy, which seems to be causing so much grief for our developing intellectual capitol (that is, adolescents).
Well, if these hypotheses prove evident, then Japan has itself a gender crisis waiting to happen (another reason I appreciate the protagonist's gender).
There's a quote - cannot for the life of me remember who at the moment - but, paraphrasing, suggests that you can judge a society by the type of porn it produces.
Now Itoh tackles this somewhat abrasively but I think we can chalk that up to his authorial youth. However, Japanese cultural does worse than simple objectification of it's genders... we're talking about a caricature of nation, after all.
Teen Suicide:
This is far and away the major theme of the book and something of a epidemic in Japan. Last I checked Japan was at two on the top five countries with the highest teen suicide rates in the world. And not at all surprisingly, these seem to correlate with the perceived competitiveness in educational indoctrinations.
Itoh, having completed this hellish gaunlet shortly before becoming an author, surely empathized with his fellow students. Society demands so much from these youth, in ways irrelevant to learning. Most attend school six days a week, with after-school jukus and clubs to fill up their extracurricular freedom.
I was lucky enough to partake, while knowing I didn't have to conform. My sister too managed to escape the Japanese Regional Schools to attend a cushy international school.
But the result is the same - conformism or death. Ostracism or death. No social outbursts required.
Lol - since I'm just rapping here (very interested in the commentary of others - james, Royce ;)), I thought I would add in some personal takeaway.
Itoh is heavily inspired by Kojima. Genocidal Organ is on the way and apparently it is loosely based on one of Kojima's earlier games. Obviously, I've just read the MGS novelization in the past two weeks, as well, but it is impossible to have been exposed to Kojima's narratives and not see that Itoh writing.
This seems like a good moment to pause. I have some errands to run.
Cheers, james. Thank you again for consolidating my experiences for me :D.
[EDIT: One more aside: Itoh does not have a handle on the science like Bakker seems to. Itoh's understanding of neuromedical research was slightly off, though not so much that it spoilt his narrative assertions. But more on this later.]
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Thanks for the insight on Japanese culture Madness.I should re-read this one with my new"insight on Japanese culture" perspective :)
What`s your take on the assumption he makes that if you remove counciousness,you remove doubt.If I remember correctly,that was kind of his conclusion on the matter right?
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Not a problem. Just thought I'd offer some personal connotations. I'm still very interested in the discussion of BBH relevant themes.
Your question draws upon the misread science I had mentioned - like the suggestion that there is a single on/off gene for consciousness. I feel Itoh's grasp of some psychological experimentation lacking, especially in comparison to Bakker.
Philosophically, I think there is some merit to Itoh's claims. So much of the manifest human problems in our various spheres (geo, bio, noos) are the result of our internal indecision/self-recrimination. Doubt can't exist without consciousness, ergo, no consciousness, no doubt. But I feel that's misconstruing the point.
It's interesting - I felt very much like Itoh's conceptions resonated more with the various posts by Benjamin Cain (http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/) on TPB than Bakker's conclusions about the post-human (in the sense of using human to denote us, the contemporaneous creatures, from the creatures differing from us in the future).
We are humans fretting about how we manifest (something I hold dear as we seem to be able to choose to manifest beautifully as well as terribly) when, in reality as we are redrawn by BBH or Itoh's conclusions, we're really just protrusions of a fleshly Nature, our intentions and doubts no different than the leaves rustling the wind, plants growing towards the Star, or the motion of the planetary orbs through the galaxy. That bothers us - even though, there is so much accumulating evidence towards the conclusion. And in reality, it is only a problem so much as other humans use this leverage to dominate other humans because argumentatively, if there is no gestalt shift in perception, then these realizations wouldn't and couldn't change our behaviors.
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And in reality, it is only a problem so much as other humans use this leverage to dominate other humans because argumentatively, if there is no gestalt shift in perception, then these realizations wouldn't and couldn't change our behaviors.
I think it's pretty much bullshit to try and make such an argument. You can't attempt an argument in regard to X - which is itself a change - to argue no change is possible in regard to X.
All it could do is some parlour trick illusionism, where the change falls outside the perceptual radar.
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Well, you should find and read the book then, Callan, because that is precisely Itoh's argument, not mine own.
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Please, amigo, exactly who is left arguing this?
It's cutting to say, but certainly not him.
You're the carrier/a carrier of the argument now. As in you've repeated it, Mike.
Then again maybe I don't understand what is meant by gestalt shift. I'd assumed its saying some kind outside-of-causality thing is required for change.
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You're the carrier/a carrier of the argument now. As in you've repeated it, Mike.
Aside, +1.
I was responding to Royce but, in both of my above posts, I'd seeded arguments for james, specifically, as originally asking for commentary on V. Itoh's BBH.
And in reality, it is only a problem so much as other humans use this leverage to dominate other humans because argumentatively,
This sentence is misleading in a couple ways but, in one aspect, it directly reflects the outcome of Harmony's plot. In another, it has connotations of both Cain's posts on TPB and Bakker's writings on BBH as a whole. Another is the antecedent premise and the primary argument.
"if there is no gestalt shift in perception, then these realizations wouldn't and couldn't change our behaviors."
This is, somewhat, the secondary argument in the sentence. It also performs the duty for the antecedent premise (which just means for the consequent to be valid or "true," then the antecedent, "coming before" argument must also be valid or "true."
"if there is no gestalt shift in perception," then it doesn't matter what was written after because it cannot be validated by this specific linguistic bolster.
Gestalts are a tricky perceptual and philosophic thorn to handle. Unfortunately, it has outgrown its simple effect, which is similar to 'flicker fusion' - Bakker offers this as analogy often on TPB - and it has a developed to the point of Thought Schools (in my opinion, groups agreeing to a number of non-debatable premises for their research) in both the philosophic and psychological disciplines.
To put it most simply, a gestalt effect manifests most obviously in visual illusions. A gestalt shift occurs, say, when that rabbit you were looking at becomes a duck, the lady becomes a lamp, the 2D image of random patterns becomes a 3D object. In many cases, individuals experience an inability to re-embody their former perceptions.
This seems to be the primary criticism for BBH's efficacy as a theory... there's yet no gestalt shift greater than, say, something akin to nihilism or Buddhism (though I would hesitate to include this as Buddhism is embodied to a greater extent than other philosophies and, thus, experience the dividends of more physically manifest changes).
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So - I complain that people aren't reading the book fast enough then take months to reply!
It occurred to me after reading your posts Madness that I don't quite understand BBT like I thought I did, so I've been going back and reading the Last Magic Show again. But to be honest, I might just be happier muddling through with my own half baked bundle of heuristics. At this point my brains like a patched up quilt, with a cigarette slowly setting it on fire hanging from the hand of an unconscious drug addict. I don't know how many more dark voyages to the void of conscious blindness it can take.
When you say "how we manifest", it seems to me that this puts us back into a kind of infinite regress where we keep putting our agency somewhere else. So I'm pretty convinced that it will turn out to be the case that we have none, but this answer is still unsatisfactory, even if true. I found Itohs supposed dystopia highly appealing.
Anyway, your comments on Harmony put it into contexts I was totally unaware of. It is interesting to see the culture underlying the novel. It reminded me of what music critic Simon Reynolds called "retromania" - the inability of modern music to go forward with any kind of progressive momentum and its reduction to endless reiterations on past sounds. There is a real melancholy to the book, buying old novels precisely because their formats are obsolete. It often feel like this, being ignorant when it comes to coding and more than basic computer tech, as if i'm stuck in archaisms all the time and the speeds of the world around me are too fast to even sit down and finish the books that I buy.
Here's hoping that all Itohs' blogposts and remaining works (I know theres a short story collection) will one day be translated into English. Are you able to read Japanese Madness? His blog is still online somewhere.
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So - I complain that people aren't reading the book fast enough then take months to reply!
It occurred to me after reading your posts Madness that I don't quite understand BBT like I thought I did, so I've been going back and reading the Last Magic Show again. But to be honest, I might just be happier muddling through with my own half baked bundle of heuristics. At this point my brains like a patched up quilt, with a cigarette slowly setting it on fire hanging from the hand of an unconscious drug addict. I don't know how many more dark voyages to the void of conscious blindness it can take.
Lol, it is definitely worth multiple perusals. The distance of assertion between the blog and the papers; the papers are tame in comparison.
When you say "how we manifest", it seems to me that this puts us back into a kind of infinite regress where we keep putting our agency somewhere else. So I'm pretty convinced that it will turn out to be the case that we have none, but this answer is still unsatisfactory, even if true. I found Itohs supposed dystopia highly appealing.
We are humans fretting about how we manifest (something I hold dear as we seem to be able to choose to manifest beautifully as well as terribly) when, in reality as we are redrawn by BBH or Itoh's conclusions, we're really just protrusions of a fleshly Nature, our intentions and doubts no different than the leaves rustling the wind, plants growing towards the Star, or the motion of the planetary orbs through the galaxy.
I assume you to mean the highlighted sentence above. I try and minimize these instances of ambiguity in my writing but I suffer from a compulsion towards the dramatic.
When I wrote "how we manifest," I should have written something to the effect of: we 'manifest' as the sum total of the exercise of our "perceived" agency. I say, 'perceived' because, obviously, the limits/existence of our "perceived" agency is up for debate. But otherwise we do and say things which affect the material world around us. Each of us is a butterfly effect as it were. And we'd like to think that we exercise our agency with intent and so as long as that is consensually the case, I'd like to hold people accountable for their personal exercise. A good percentage of "nihilists" I know are "better" people than those who believe things (Person Who Fallacy)... and I'm not necessarily talking religion so much as personal commitment. AA puts Evangelists to shame, neh?
Not really contending your second statement though.
Anyway, your comments on Harmony put it into contexts I was totally unaware of. It is interesting to see the culture underlying the novel. It reminded me of what music critic Simon Reynolds called "retromania" - the inability of modern music to go forward with any kind of progressive momentum and its reduction to endless reiterations on past sounds. There is a real melancholy to the book, buying old novels precisely because their formats are obsolete. It often feel like this, being ignorant when it comes to coding and more than basic computer tech, as if i'm stuck in archaisms all the time and the speeds of the world around me are too fast to even sit down and finish the books that I buy.
Yeah, that pretty much sums up academic philosophy. I understand the concept but I think the world is rife with experimentation.
Here's hoping that all Itohs' blogposts and remaining works (I know theres a short story collection) will one day be translated into English. Are you able to read Japanese Madness? His blog is still online somewhere.
No, I was pretty much a ghost in Japan - the distinctions between my sister and I are fairly pronounced at this point. However, she'd likely have no stomach to read Itoh's blog.
It would be fitting to nail that linguistic accomplishment thirteen years later.