So many. So many children born...
So many taken.
The watching men gasp for the sorrow of a mother's endless Giving ...and
"What the Mother gives ..." he cries out to the King. "You must take!"
Something that struck me after a recent re-read of WLW: it doesn't make a lot of sense for Yatwer to work against the Great Ordeal through Sorweel. If anything, it seemed like she wants to prevent No-God from returning. These two lines from her POV seem to refer to the stillborn epidemic during the FA:QuoteSo many. So many children born...
So many taken.
The whole point (ostensibly) for the Great Ordeal is to stop the World being shut from the Outside and the cycle of birth ending.
There's nothing in that passage that seems to prime us for thinking about the apocalypse; nevertheless, you could be right about them referencing Yatwer's motivations.
1. Khellus' motivation is something other than what he's stated. Which wouldn't exactly be shocking becuase, well, he's that kind of dude. But it's one of the only pieces of evidence I can find in the books that actually points to his having an ulterior motive.
2. Sorweel is wrong about Yatwer's motivation. RSB clearly has a fondness for unreliable narrators (Akka in PON) and it wouldn't be a shock if Yatwer is after something less straightforward than killing the Aspect-Emperor. It could be as simple as his being a "sleeper" as has been stated in other threads: Khellus successfully prevents the No-God from returning and then Yatwer gives Sorweel the go-ahead to salt Khellus.
If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.I think this is likely. Kellhus is basically the only big player other than the consult/No-God. Anything that negatively affects the God's will inevitably be attributed to Kellhus.
If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.
that's actually pretty humorous/ironic if it's true.Especially if she actually does kill Kellhus and that becomes the reason for the Ordeal's failure and the eventual rise of the No-God and the shutting of the world.
If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.
The question you've asked, I think, really suggests that the God of Birth should notice that all babies are stillborn.
Tangent: does the strong opposition of the goddess of Motherhood to Kellhus imply that his support for women's lib in the New Empire is somewhat self-serving and spotty?
that's actually pretty humorous/ironic if it's true.Especially if she actually does kill Kellhus and that becomes the reason for the Ordeal's failure and the eventual rise of the No-God and the shutting of the world.
Although if the WLW is in Monmen it would be a hell of a walk to get to the Ordeal in time to slay Kellhuss before the advent of the No-God.
Tangent: does the strong opposition of the goddess of Motherhood to Kellhus imply that his support for women's lib in the New Empire is somewhat self-serving and spotty?
So from her perspective, the stillborn epidemic from the FA is essentially happening at the same time as Khellus' emergence just prior to the SA?
But oppression is great for Yatwer as it ensures her a large body of worshipers. So much irony in the Yatwer-Kellhus conflict!
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?
On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire. He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet. Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire? Or is he in contact with someone? And if so, who?Can't remember if their conversation happened with fire around. I image if he can watch all the great ordeal fires, he could have cast a little spell on those back home.
Back to Yatwer for a moment...I'm equally confused
As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing. I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements. The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing. Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...I'd be very surprised if nothing was cleared up by the end, but equally surprised if everything was explained. There will be plenty of stuff for us to argue about once TUC is released.
if she's looking back from the end of timeGah...this is where writing just becomes too obscure for me. Too up in the air. What does the described position the gods hold in time mean? Anything that comes to mind, pretty much.
On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire. He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet. Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire? Or is he in contact with someone? And if so, who?slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire. Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?
Back to Yatwer for a moment...Well Serwe prayed a lot and kept getting her prayers answered, so I'd think we would see a similar result and a similar level of significance in the prayers of Serwe and Mimara. Remember this is the sort of thing alongside dreams or nature-vocalizations that Kellhus dismisses as meaningless noise but from the readerly level (I feel like saying the 'meta level' has too much baggage that accompanies the phrase), anyway, from a readerly-level it is not meaningless noise because readers get to see it, and something that makes it 'on screen' in a piece of fiction is privileged information simply because it exists. So even though from Kellhus perspective there's lots of noise he's filtering out, from a reader's perspective we see he's wrong and there is a lot of signal in that noise because the author has already filtered it for the reader.
As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing. I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements. The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing. Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire? ... Nothing more.
Back to Yatwer for a moment...
As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing. I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements. The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing. Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?
One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?
I can't see why he wouldn't return. After all, if he wins and survives, where else would he go? Zeum?
On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire. He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet. Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire? Or is he in contact with someone? And if so, who?Can't remember if their conversation happened with fire around. I image if he can watch all the great ordeal fires, he could have cast a little spell on those back home.
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.
One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...I'd be very surprised if nothing was cleared up by the end, but equally surprised if everything was explained. There will be plenty of stuff for us to argue about once TUC is released.
slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire. Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?
Well Serwe prayed a lot and kept getting her prayers answered, so I'd think we would see a similar result and a similar level of significance in the prayers of Serwe and Mimara.
Forward moving time, where what comes before determines what comes after, is a very hard narrative design to escape from. And Kellhus and the Dunyain are certainly very trapped within that perconception even as other agencies and entities are not.
slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire. Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?
Proyas surprised himself with his lack of hesitation. He came to his knees before the edge of the small iron hearth ... He knew the famed story of the Tusk, where the God Husyelt asked Angeshrael to bow his face into his cooking fire. He knew, verbatim, the Sermon of the Ziggurat, where Kellhus had used this story to reveal his divinity to the First Holy War twenty years previous. He knew that "Bowing into the Fire" had since become a metaphor for Zaudunyani revelation.
Quote from: Wilshire on November 24, 2013, 10:19:33 PM
Quote from: Triskele on November 24, 2013, 05:11:13 PM
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?
I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.
So you two have ruled out Mimara being Yatwerian Holy?
House Gaunum certainly came to ruin. Girl prayed hard.At this point in the story, the reader has little reason to believe that his is not a coincidence. Looking back though....
'Yatwerian Holy' is a term I dislike. How about Yatwerian chosen?
Anyway, I wasn't ruling it. I was more suggesting that if Yatwer exists than so too must the other gods. Her prayers, because they are to Yatwer, don't make them special. She could pray to any God and potentialy have her prayers answered.
I do think that those who Yatwer has chosen are special, because she has shown to have both an extreme interest and a lot of power within the sphere of Earwa. Mimara could easily be your Yatwerian Holy, but through little fault of her own. Yatwer chooses who she will, be it one of her high Clerics, or a lowly slave, a blind man in the streets, or a suffering child (Mimara did suffer quite a bit).
If the Gift was somehow a divine present from one of the Hundred, why does it scar the Onta so?
+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.
+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.
Why are Ciphrang necessarily evil? They just act according to their interests, i don't see them having a morality one way or another.
Some random and incompatible thoughts about Yatwer:
- She is simple a tool for the Consult? Shae's own version of the gnosis+daimos made her a slave/ally ages ago?
...
- If Kellhus hopes to ultimately mold the Zeumi prince into a believer-king to take the circumfix to Zeum, then it's pretty neat that Kellhus' future agent and Yatwer's agent are best buds.
Mostly because angelic Ciphrang were mentioned in an interview.
I went back and read the context of my comment and I'm not sure what motivated that brackets... usually, I have something pretty specific in mind.
Lol it's Scott we are talking about, the difference between angelic ciphrang and regular ones might simply be the use of lube ;)
You just suggested elsewhere that the pouch is a sorcerous object hiding the Chorae, MG..."Mundane" explanations do not rule out higher intervention. Perhaps Yatwer sanctioned the sorcery used to craft the pouch such that it didn't leave a mark. It can be both sorcerous and 'divine'.
I'd like to avoid drifting to either extreme opinion of the dunyain/Kellhus. I don't think he/they are ignorant or omniscient, but rather somewhere in between. It is just difficult to know where to draw that line.
Oh, and I kept saying 'Serwe' when I obviously meant 'Serwa.' Oops.I mess this up all the time. My recent read of TDTCB helped straighten it out a bit, but it is still irritating. Why change one letter :P
Why are we so convinced that the Anasurimbors can't sense the chorae in the pouch? They all played along with Sorweel's belief that Yatwer was hiding his face, when in fact Serwe reveals that he truly was the enemy part of the Niom. If he actually was a Believer King, they would have chosen someone like Zsoronga instead, since he obviously hates them. Sorweel was running around thinking he'd fooled them all, when that wasn't the case. I think they all just played along with his beliefs to get him to do what they wanted (standard operating procedure for dunyain). The greatest manipulators of men in the world would hardly let on to Sorweel (basically an infant to them) that they knew his dirty little secret. They played him from the start. They knew about the chorae (imo), which was why Serwe wouldn't take the pouch from him.
Unless I've forgotten a crucial piece of evidence, which is altogether possible.
I would go as far as to say that the gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.This is the overall problem with an unfinished story and characters that are known to lie about everything.
I would go as far as to say that the gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.This is the overall problem with an unfinished story and characters that are known to lie about everything.
I like this idea, but they fully convinced me they where telling the truth that I never saw it. Now I'm torn :P.
Lol, i am not saying they lied about their relationship, i am just saying that they timed their push-ups so that Sorweel would bump into them and get jealous. You can have your cake and eat it too ;)Wait, you mean this is something people didn't get? Like it wasn't obvious they were setting up Sorweel to trigger jealousy?
So many unknowns.
I will say that Kellhus must be able to sense the discrepancy between Sorweel's face and his actions. Whether Kellhus knows who is responsible for the Mask or not, it would be fairly obvious to him from his inability to predict Sorweel's actions from his face.
You just suggested elsewhere that the pouch is a sorcerous object hiding the Chorae, MG...
Lol, i am not saying they lied about their relationship, i am just saying that they timed their push-ups so that Sorweel would bump into them and get jealous. You can have your cake and eat it too ;)Wait, you mean this is something people didn't get? Like it wasn't obvious they were setting up Sorweel to trigger jealousy?
Suddenly all the complaints about that scene make a lot more sense. Really? How did people miss that?
The narrative deliberately obfuscates the nature of K & E's kids to huge effect, locke.Constantly searching makes it likely you'll find something, but that doesn't mean its there. Forcing meaning into a meaningless passage ;) (not specifically this instance, just generally)
I think readers like you and I are constantly searching for hints as to what is 'really going on', but the clues are often slight and often contradictory, so much so that it is very easy just to assume they cancel each other and stick to interpreting actions only or just 'miss' things because one is looking for confirmation of other hints.