The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 28, 2013, 01:04:01 pm
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I'm rather suprised this hasn't been brought up much. We don't get many conversations with Dunyain, so this should be important. I'm got several things I want to touch on but this WLW sub forum is rather empty so I might partition up my thought into different threads depending on how it goes.
Starts on page 258 and goes to about 265 (USA Hardcover). Its best to begin at the beginning though.
"Why would Father trust a whore over the pious Shriah of the Thousand Temples?"
"I know not"
"But you suspect."
"I fear my brother does not fully trust me."
"Because he knows, doesn't he? He knows the secret of our blood."
So this that last line gives me pause. What is the secret of their blood? Who's blood exactly are they talking about? Who is the secret from?
What secret:
Thats really the main question here. I don't believe the "secret" is explicitly stated...
Who is this secret kept form:
If just the regular humans, who gives a damn? They hide everything form them anyways and play with them like marionettes, whats one more mark against many? Hardly worth mentioning something that insignificant. It must be more. Don't know what.
Who's blood:
Could be several things, or at least potentially. They are not directly related so there are several bloodlines to be explored. The obvious, and only certain tie, is Moenghus Sr. But the blood of big Moe is only 50% in Maithanet, and 25% in Inrilatas, to the best of our knowledge. What secrets could that diluted blood harbor over two generations with separate mothers? Kellhus, obviously, also has this blood, so this would be their secret isnt a very well kept one.
Is it referring to Dunyain blood in general? That too me doesn't really seem like something worth mentioning, unless it is in reference to the fact that Dunyain must control circumstance and are thus can always be trusted to revolt.
What about the mothers blood? Though assuredly Esmi was not Maithanet's mother, though I guess it may be possible it was Esmi's mother.... maybe. Very thin line there. Mostly crackpot there.
If not the mother, then how about the mixing of Dunyain and World Born blood? Perhaps it always causes the kind of interplay we see so extremely with Kelmomas, though to a lesser/greater extent depending on how much of which half you got. This could be an interesting answer, as then it means that basically all the half-dunyain are somehow crazy, but some like Maithanet can control/hide/balance their "true" nature with a more tempered, more calculating, more reasonable mind.
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I'll have more to say later, but I just wanted to say that of the many highlights from WLW which I loved overall, this is near the top.
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Yeah this was a pretty powerful section. We shall hopefully enjoy a long conversation. I've many more things to bring about.
This is like christmas come early :)
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This is also one of my favorites. As you said, Wilshire, Dunyain conversation is pretty sparse. Inrilatas and that episode reminded me so much of Neuropath. Awesome. I too will have more organized thoughts later... work calls again too soon.
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So here's an idea that lockesnow threw out in another thread.
Inralatus asks Maithanet how many kids Moenghus had. He gives the slightest hesitation and tells him that he had six or so, and that they were drowned at the first sign of peculiarities.
Why the pause? Are we as readers supposed to read anything into the pause? Does the pause suggest that we should question anything in Maithanet's answer? Was the drowning not always literal? Was one of them not drowned in water but in Water?
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I assumed Maithanet's frequent pauses were the moments when he accessed the Probability Trance, which would imply they were the moments when he recieved fresh, unexpected information that he regarded as relevant enough to recalculate his long-term plans.
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+1 for communicative quality, Duskweaver.
Oh, Wilshire... we will go deeper. Other questions will emerge from the depths ;).
"'And have the circumstances arrived?'
'No.'
Laughter. "Oh, but Uncle Holy, they have arrived - most certainly'" (WLW, p406)
The first instance of Inrilatas corroborating circumstances for the reader. I really feel like Inrilatas plays his hand with humour - especially as he realizes throughout the conversation that he has the ability to play Maithanet so easily. He is an agent of chaos - maybe even holy, unconstrained, based on the other conversation he has with Kelmomas.
Inrilatas asks Maithanet Esmenet's question. Even if it's not entirely clear to the reader at this point, Inrilatas knows Kelmomas plays Maithanet and Esmenet against each other, apparently at the whim of a Dunyanic child. And Inrilatas knows here, that Maithanet doesn't know.
Then Inrilatas moves onto the noted conversation about Moenghus the Elder's other children (which lockesnow has provided us with wicked speculation concerning drowning referring to Fanim ritual. The point Inrilatas seems to come to is that all the half-Dunyain seem to question Kellhus' choices.
"'You think that Mother has comprised Father.'
Another fraction of hesitation. Maithanet's gaze drifted in and out of focus.
Inrilatas seized the opportunity. 'You think Mother has blunted Father's pursuit of the Shortest Path time and again, that he walks in arcs to appease her heart, when he should cleave to the ruthless lines of the Thousandfold Thought.'
...
'Who has told you these things?' His uncle demanded.
Inrilatas ignored the distraction. 'You think Father risks the very world for his Empress's sake - for the absurdity of love!'
'Was it her? Did she tell you about the Thousandfold Thought?' (p408)
The question of the Thousandfold Thought arises... It seems again that this provides evidence towards the Thousandfold Thought being the culmination of the Probability Trance, the unfolding of unimaginable circumstance. The Thousandfold Thought seems an artifact, something all Dunyain would realize given enough time and enough knowledge of the fundamental variables of reality.
Inrilatas seems to have devised it in his cell... and he seems to have seen further than Maithanet.
They move on in conversation - with some interesting perspective by Kelmomas on how he desperately wants Maithanet's training, which Kellhus won't provide Kelmomas, making Father useless (p409).
"'Strange, isn't it, Uncle? The way we Dunyain, for all our gifts, can never speak?'
'We are speaking now.'
Inrilatas laughed at this, lowered his beard-hazed cheek to his knees once again. 'But how can that be when we mean nothing of what we say?' (p409)
Inrilatas is simply playing for time and acknowledges, apparently over Maithanet's head, that he is means nothing of what he says... Using Truth to deceive another Dunyain :shock: ?
And then the finale, the theme of the excerpt in a big way - Kelmomas' manipulations are revealed...
'Mother?' His older brother exclaimed. 'You think Mother arranged this?'
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'Kelmomas?' Maithanet asked, not with the incredulity appropriate to a human, but in the featureless voice belonging to the Dunyain" (p411).
And finally, Inrilatas turns Maithanet's Dunyain scrutiny from himself to his little brother, the only plan which might have worked on Maithanet... and ultimately, didn't...
Whether or not Inrilatas choose such a fate, to die by his Uncle hand to further his brother's mad agenda, or he saw another future for himself, Kelmomas' own goals are furthered... however, from this point on, Maithanet realizes the absurd dimensions of circumstance, which have evolved unbeknownst to him, and can work under the guise of more objective knowledge.
Just some freestyles.
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World born crossed with Dunyain will always be a contaminated experiment. In some ways worse than starting over again from the very begining.
On his pause, it depends. Our own pauses are rather like accesses to probabilities, when faced with uncomfortable things and left wanting for a responce. Maithanet's database like scan of probabilities may be tinged with actual feelings about his siblings murders. Or even just how close he was to being killed. If half Dunyain question, it may be tinged with questioning his own father.
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I was re-reading a bit.
It's great when Inralatus "sees" the second voice in little Kel's head. I so want to know what's up w/ the other voice. Sammi? Ajokli? Simple craziness? Other?
I do realize that's in the preceding section before Maithanet arrives, but it's just more cool Inralatus stuff.
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Sticking with my current fascination for an Ajokli/Kellhus alliance....
Why trust the fate of the empire to a whore?
Because she is bound to Gierra, and thus reachable by Ajokli? or something to do with Anagke?
Kellhus says something to Esme about why he must use her (instead of Maitha) in his plans for the empire whilst he goes of with the ordeal, I think it relates strongly to her humanity and connection with the gods. Maitha is the obvious target for Yatwers' coallition (as head of the 1000 temples and a fellow dunyain).
Interesting that Inrau-junior's one personal desire is to kill for murder's sake (Ajokli again).
I think Kellhus really left the empire in Ajokli's hands.
e.t.a. perhaps the empire is a sacrifice to Ajokli for other services...?
One other aside, about the dunyain blood. Ishual is built over ancient non-man mansion (the 1000, 1000 halls). Perhaps the dunyain were searching for it (in TDTCB prologue) as a source of quirri to use in their eugenics programme. I.e. the halls are a necropolis and the dunyain superhuman powers are not just the result of 2000 years of selective breeding but also genetic drug therapy.
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Haha damnit Madness get out of my head
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Lol... I definitely agree that the conversation with Inrilatas and Kelmomas, where Kelmomas leaves his brother the tool to free himself, as well as, the conversation where Esmenet dons an Ainoni Mask to confront Maithanet are important to the themes emerging in our discussion.
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Great passage.
And what about Maithanet's mother?
Who was she?
Why Maitha's bones are so Dunyain iron against Inrilatas's human ones?
Simply dominant/recesive genes, that turned out that way by chance? (or maybe not by chance, being that one of Moe's selective methods when drowning pups)
Or is she (Maithanet's mother) something more?
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This is why I wanted to make a couple of threads, big posts scare people off and some questions get ignored. Ah well I'll do my best
So here's an idea that lockesnow threw out in another thread.
Inralatus asks Maithanet how many kids Moenghus had. He gives the slightest hesitation and tells him that he had six or so, and that they were drowned at the first sign of peculiarities.
Why the pause? Are we as readers supposed to read anything into the pause? Does the pause suggest that we should question anything in Maithanet's answer? Was the drowning not always literal? Was one of them not drowned in water but in Water?
I always interpreted the pause as him dipping into the probability trance. Probably him trying to see what would happen based on different responses
Great passage.
And what about Maithanet's mother?
Who was she?
Why Maitha's bones are so Dunyain iron against Inrilatas's human ones?
Simply dominant/recesive genes, that turned out that way by chance? (or maybe not by chance, being that one of Moe's selective methods when drowning pups)
Or is she (Maithanet's mother) something more?
Maybe she was selected for her physical strength, opposed to Esmi's mental. That would also help explain why Inrilatas so dominated this confrontation until it came to blows. Why Inrilatas could see further into TTT, even from his cage.
On kids:
This was something of a curiosity. Reading carefully (or with bias i guess) it can be seen that much more is going on than what was actually said. What was said and what was read :P
"How many children did grandfather sire?"
"Six," ...
"Were any of them like me?"
A fraction of a heartbeat.
"I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
At first glance, not much here. Six kids, drowned all of them cuz they where crazy. Right? Wrong! (mostly crackpot):
The six children of Moenghus. First son was Kellhus which I think most people over looked, and another was Maithanet. That leaves us with 4. I think the remaining children that he "sired" are the 4 that lived. The ones that remained un-drowned.
Look: "where any of them like me?" ... "He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
If Maithanet and the other 4 never expressed signs of peculiarities, then they wouldn't have been drowned. The statement remains truth. Daddy Moe did drown all the crazies. But are those considered true sons? Or just something ... other ... something not quite human. Something not to be counted as among your tribe. A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.
Ah, but you say, the last two lines disprove this. He was the only one that expressed balance.
Nay I tell you. Look closer!
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
First of all, balance is not what condemned the children, it was peculiarities. Balance has been substituted here, and this may have allowed Maithanet to lie with truth. None of the remaining children where peculiar, thus left alive, but maybe none of them were balanced. Maybe they excelled in certain fields more than others. A schoolman is not balanced in the ways of combat. The sons or daughters of Moenghus may have been specialized in certain fields, while Maitha could see sorcery, could wield a sword, could speak with a silver tongue. Maybe the most balanced, but not the only one that lived.
The remaining 5 sons of Moenghus walk.
Regarding The Thousandfold Thought (TTT):
I actually think it is possible that his section disproves some of our theories about TTT. I've said for quite some time that the TTT is the inevitable culmination of events when a Dunyain follows the probability trance for long enough, with all variables.
Maybe the only variables needed are sorcery and the Inchoroi. Think of all the knowledge within Ishual. All of that time and solitude, and none of them have seen TTT? How is that possible? Not because they dont have all the variables, but because they are missing the important ones. This is why the original Dunyain blotted magic and Inchoroi from their history.
These thoughts stem from Inrilatas and Kelmomas. I'll start with Inrilatas.
How much time did Father spend with him? He taught him how to use his gifts, or at least how to better control them. But did Kellhus teach him about War? Doubtful. Would have been a waste of time.
Did he teach him about the Inchoroi? He taught all his children what needed to be known in order to survive. They all knew about skin-spys. Even of Kellhus did not teach him more than that, it would have been enough for the boy to see into the Darkness. A light through which to explore the dark caves of time. He could uncover much simply because he knew what he was looking for.
Sorcery? Probably not, but that doesn't matter. All Inrilatas needed was to know of the existence of magic to be able to count it among the variables of TTT.
Though by that same logic that means that his knowledge about war would have been plenty for his musings. But thats find, I guess that just means war isnt one of the key important factors, considering the Ishual Dunyain certainly know of war and none of them are running around gouging out their eyes and leading armies through the north. (not that we know :P).
For Kelmomas, I won't say much since its mostly speculation. But suffice it to say that I think he has some kind of twisted version of TTT, something pretty close to the truth but slightly bent from inexperience.
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Try and imagine this conversation from Kellhus' perspective.
If it were Kellhus in the Maithanet role interviewing Inrilatus, how would Kellhus' internal narrative describe it?
'Who has told you these things?' His uncle demanded.
If Kellhus were to 'snap' at Inrilatis as Maithanet does here, it would be calculated--note that Maitha drops the farce the only point he is genuinely surprised, at Kelmomas, the text even alerts us to the fact that his voice is flat when he's not manipulating. That means that the "demanded" in the above quote is a signal of manipulation, Maithanet is using the strategy that Kellhus also used--successfully--on an insane person who knows all the dunyain strategies. This interview should strongly recall the dialogues between Kellhus and Cnaiur. If we take that as our basis, the calculation behind asking the question, "Who has told you these things?" would be to try and sow doubt in Inrilatus' mind, Kellhus would provide a question in an attempt to make him question what he knows.
Now turn around the conversation a second time. This time imagine it is Kellhus in the role of Inrilatis, imprisoned, much like Kellhus was imprisoned by the Scylvendi when he was first captured), narrate the conversation through Inrilatis' thoughts and uncover how a Dunyain might be jousting through this engagement.
Kelmomas perceives the whole thing chaotically, but there is no reason the reader must, however we default to favor the biases of Kelmomas' perceptions specifically because we've been denied the perspectives of Maithanet and Inrilatus. A simple substitution exercise could help readers overcome these author intended biases. It's amazing, but the author is hiding much in plain sight by relying on knowledge of how the reader will behave.
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i'm going to reread it again with that in mind. I'm sure it will be revealing.
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So just reread the Inrilatas-Kelmomas conversation... Real, real good.
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So just reread the Inrilatas-Kelmomas conversation... Real, real good.
"Who whispers to you!?"
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"So why," Inrilatas asked, "do you think father has spared me?"
The Shriah of the Thousand Temples shrugged. "Because the eye of the World is upon him." - pg260
Eye of the World eh?
My first thought about this line was that the Dunyain somehow know the the World conspires. That its something that can be measured, grasped, accounted for in their calculations. Or is it normal to make World a proper noun?
Next, the phrase as a whole, reminds me of Cil-Aujas. The eye in the hearts. (Which, btw, WTF was that? Does anyone know? Always wondered...). Maybe Maith was alluding to something with physical meaning, rather than a metaphor.
pg 262
"Strange, Isn't it, Uncle? The way we Dunyain, for all our gifts, can neverspeak?"
"We are speaking now"
..."But how can that be when we mean nothing of what we say?"
"You confu-"
What does this mean exactly? I think that this is the most false statement, the biggest lie, in the entire conversation. Maybe, just maybe, Inrilatas is manipulating Maith and he truely doesn't mean a word of it, but I doubt that. If he was straight up lying, this conversation would have ended much more quickly. The only way to lie to a Dunyain is with truth.
Inrilatas aside, Maith surely was the one a bit off balance here, and I think a lot of what he said is filling with meaning and truth. Or at least it comes tangent to the truth.
pg 262
"What would they do, you think, if Men could see us? If they could fathom the way we don and doff them like cloths?"
Maithanet shrugged "What would any child do, if they could fathom their father?"
Inrilatas smiled. "That depends upon the father ... This is the answer you want me to speak."
"No. That is the answer."
What is the answer? What question is it answering? What just happened there ... The answer to the universe is 42 but that means nothing without the question.
This right here is huge. It is why there is so much debate about TTT, about Moe and Kel, about where Kel is going with his Ordeal. If all Dunyain are the same, they should all be seeing TTT in the same light, they should all be trying to "save" the world in the same way. There should have been no reason for Kellhus to kill his father.
Is Inrilatas like Moenghus? Does he not see the possibility that Dunyain, with all there intellecutal prowess, could somehow be different given all the same information? I don't even know if that is what Moe thought, but I think that it comes close to the truth.
Is Maith saything something here about the difference between himself and this brother? What differences could he be hinting at.
Always more questions...
pg262
"You really believe that we Dunyain differ? That, like fathers, some can be good and some bad?
"I know so"
"Oh, we have our peculiarities, I grant you that," ...
my bold
Why did he use that world right there? Was this a nod to Maith, saying that he has realized that earlier in the conversation Maith was lying about his other siblings? If they are all peculiar they should all be dead, or they should all be alive.
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Interesting stuff Wilshire.
My thoughts on your transciptions.
pg 260.
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Puts me in mind of Kellhus' journey to Kudea, when he says to the World, "I know you listen..."
Less a sign of Dunyain awareness and more a declaration of Maitha's acceptence of Kellhus as Prophet.
pg 262A
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Inrilatas is presenting himself as a Dunyain without purpose, who refuses instruction. Thus his conversations are meaningless.
I think this exchange is definately there to make the reader question everything the dunyain might say.
And I agree, Inrilatas is certainly lying or obfuscating here.
pg 262B & C
...
These passages together indicate that Inrilatas is arguing a Nietzschean worldveiw (no good or bad), which is appropriate for dunyain. I think he is trying to lever into Maitha's training under Moenghus vs his latter conditioning from Kellhus (that Kellhus is a force for good on a mission from god).
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The gods have burnt our ships...
My theory is that the empire is meant to collapse. It makes the new holy war have nothing to go back to. So they will fight simply to sing on in the losses they inflict in their enemy. Maithanet would have been too capable. Though I'm kind of surprised he didn't seem to consider the option - perhaps Kellhus helped trigger his assasination.
Speaking of, if Inralatus thinks it's the greatest madness to just kill uncle holy, what did Esme just do???
In other news, Inralatus is not cool, he is frightening!
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You boys don't think that 262a suggests that Inrilatas is mocking his Uncle? Maithanet is looking for some meaning some purpose in Inrilatas designs, his conversation, which would enlighten Maithanet to just what is going on with the Empire and Esmenet. Inrilatas is just playing for time, his only goal is to get Maithanet's Dunyain scrutiny off himself for enough time to use his chains on his Uncle.
Though there is the second more generalized take on what he says, in that, nothing a Dunyain says can be taken as truth in and of itself. As Cnaiur would say, language is always a weapon, whether words of open arms or closed fists.
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I think Inrilatas essentially tries to open up wounds, not like a doctor tries to open wounds so as to attempt to heal, but to simply open wounds. Weaponised philosophy. The words are just more chains around metaphysical necks, until he can do the real deal.
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A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.
So, this reminded me, what about Moenghus' daughter that Skiotha's wife gave birth to? There is no explicit mention that the daughter was killed too.
Then, two seasons later, the other women strangled his mother for giving birth to a blonde girl. As they raised her corpse on the vulture poles, he began to understand what had actually happened. His mother’s death, he knew, was a destination, the outcome of a journey. And Moënghus was the traveller.
Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Darkness That Comes Before (Prince of Nothing S.) (pp. 370-371). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.
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I've wondered about this child as well... in fact, I've considered that it might be Anissi.
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I've wondered about this child as well... in fact, I've considered that it might be Anissi.
Unfortunately, she's a bit too young according to the glossary at the back of TTT.
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+1.
You think a simple circa can stop my rampant speculations ;)?
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I think Cnaiur just likes blonde women because they're foreign and exotic... and remind him of Moenghus, but without also reminding him that he's gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide.
So of course his "favourite wife" is half-Norsirai.
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I've always appreciated one of the arcs of Cnaiur's perspective from "Anissi. The first wife of his heart" (TDTCB, p363) to "Serwe... The first wife of his heart" (TTT, p486).
Not my madness... Madness all the same.
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I've always appreciated one of the arcs of Cnaiur's perspective from "Anissi. The first wife of his heart" (TDTCB, p363) to "Serwe... The first wife of his heart" (TTT, p486).
Not my madness... Madness all the same.
Pssh, I don't think of this as a sign of his madness, I think of it more like pre- and post-Kellhus perspectives... Pre-Kellhus Anissi took Cnaiur's beatings and still somehow played the loving wife, she was the only wife that could tolerate Moenghus within his heart. Post-Kellhus Anissi is off the radar and Serwe is his Proof and his Prize -- his only defense against Kellhus occupying his heart. Although he was super butt-hurt about Moenghus he instantly recognized the danger of the son, his world recycled itself the day he found Kellhus upon the mound. Kellhus represents a rebirth of all the shame and horror of Cnaiur's life... Am I way over-rationalizing the mind of a raving lunatic due to the fact that he is one of my favorite chars in any novel? Almost definitely, lol.
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super butt-hurt about Moenghus
Slightly unfortunate choice of words, there! :P
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+1 Lol.
Conditioned, I figure Cnaiur's forgotten about Anissi, unfortunately. Before Kellhus, Cnaiur might have lived a stable - albeit brutal - life. And I've got nothing but love for our boy, I think the Dunyain f[h]ubar.
"'We must bury her,' he called.
Serwe helped him." (TTT, p248).
Btw, I've been studying Latin academically, rather than personally, this year and even though it was one of the first things we went over, It just clicked today that Serwe = Slave (the v is pronounced w, according to this professor). She's been generally accurate in my courses with her. Fantastic perspectives.
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Serwe = Slave
I cannot believe I never noticed that. :shock: :oops:
(the v is pronounced w, according to this professor)
Yep. Properly speaking, Classical Latin (i.e. Latin as spoken by the Romans) has no /v/ phoneme (it came later in Mediaeval and Ecclesiastical Latin). Pronouncing V as /w/ still makes me think of Michael Palin's Pontius Pilate, though... :P
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+1 madness +1 Duskweaver
My old, very miserable Latin vocabulary slowly creeps back in my mind, after your posts.
I thought the lessons of my Latin teacher were lost "in the darkness that comes before" ;)
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I will +1 my professor from you, Duskweaver, when I see her tomorrow. She'd actually get a kick out of us using Latin in this medium.
You can't cover all the bases all the time, boys ;).
+1 for Monty Python. Lmao. They probably weren't even trying to be funny, just historically accurate.
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he was super butt-hurt about Moenghus
I wonder how he felt after meeting Aurang.
Yep. Properly speaking, Classical Latin (i.e. Latin as spoken by the Romans) has no /v/ phoneme (it came later in Mediaeval and Ecclesiastical Latin).
Tr00 dat, the V is pronounced as "w" in Classical Latin. This took quite a while to sink into my head, along with the pronunciation of C as a "hard c" (Cicero's name is pronounced "Kikero", not "Sisero").
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+1 :).
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I'm pretty sure there's a reference to Moënghus's daughter being drowned or something as well. But I'd have to check.
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I know there are several accounts of various children being drowned throughout the series, but I can't recall any that where Moe's.
Oh yeah, wonder what ever became of that poor lad who got sold into slavery whilst trying to catch a glimpse of Maitha in TDTCB.
Hope he's all right.
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Dang, not spotting it so far.
Though it's interesting that Kellhus has such trouble making a child, yet bang, first chick Moe seduces makes one (though were not told if its mutated or anything, I guess. But usually the naration notes something like that).
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It doesn't say whether Moënghus' daughter was killed by the Scylvendi, but she probably was. Otherwise, Cnaiür would've commented more on her.
The whole part about Dunyain being unable to produce kids with ordinary human women seems to be a ret-con. The first time we hear about this is TJE. Before that, it seemed like the Dunyain could reproduce like any normal person, just that their kids with ordinary humans wouldn't inherit full Dunyain abilities. (Maithanet being less superhuman than Kellhus, for example).
Oh yeah, wonder what ever became of that poor lad who got sold into slavery whilst trying to catch a glimpse of Maitha in TDTCB.
Hope he's all right.
Knowing who wrote the books, that kid probably ended up in a BDSM brothel and got raped forever.
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WHO ARE THE DUNYAIN, comes to mind for some reason.
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Lol...
I'll have to find the two relevant quotes for you. From what I remember - unless this can be recontextualized within Cnaiur's madness - they only don't kill the daughter of Moenghus and Cnaiur's mother. Cnaiur's mother is killed - does Moenghus have a son by her that dies as well?
The daughter survives... Clearly, she must be Anissi. Because Cnaiur/Bakker are that fucked up ;).
This. Is. Bakker.
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Makes complete sense to me. How do the ages work out? Cnaiur was pretty young at that point so it could be pretty close.
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How do the ages work out?
They don't. Well, assuming the Encyclopaedic Glossary is accurate, anyway. Anissi was born in 4089. Moenghus seduced Cnaiur and his mother ten years earlier (Cnaiur killed Skiotha in 4079).
However, I like Madness' theory, so I propose the EG is wrong and Anissi's birth year should be 4079, not 4089.
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Second time you've thrown a wrench in my speculation with Anissi's entry, Duskweaver ;).
I should learn.
Another issue is that this leaves the possibility of a "Kelmomas" inside Anissi... I wonder that she and Kellhus wouldn't have had a more interesting interaction if either sensed the truth of the other.
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I'm sure she was just another whore like all the rest.
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Another issue is that this leaves the possibility of a "Kelmomas" inside Anissi... I wonder that she and Kellhus wouldn't have had a more interesting interaction if either sensed the truth of the other.
Yeah. Kellhus would definitely have recognized Anissi as his half-sister, if she was. (We learn in WLW that the Dunyain are easily recognizable to each other, so it's impossible that he'd miss her). And it's very unlikely that Kellhus wouldn't have commented further, in the next two books, about finding his half-sister on the Scylvendi steppe.
It's a shame we didn't see Kellhus' interactions with Cnaiür's wives. We know they had a lot of conversations (because of Cnaiür using his wives as intermediaries for a long time, since he didn't want Kellhus to "read" his own face), but never actually hear those. I always find Kellhus' manipulation skills pretty fascinating to read about.
I'm sure she was just another whore like all the rest.
You're probably right - Moënghus' daughter, if she survived, definitely ended up as a whore.
This, after all, is Bakker.
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Well the whores can be kahit and we already have two examples. the whores are like the damned blind people. too much insight.
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In TWP, near the front (of the book) while Cnauir is ruminating on how easily everyone is succumbing to the Dunyain, he thinks how easy it must have been for Moe, one stripling lad and his mother, he also thinks about how on producing a blond child his mother was killed and his blond haired brother cast into the fire.
Sorry don't have the book to hand, it's before the Kellhus internal dialogue where he thinks about the plains churning up bodies and after where he starts to teach Akka Logic etc.
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WHO ARE THE DUNYAIN, comes to mind for some reason.
This is good for a T-shirt. As it promotes interest and in google Dunyain will point to RSB books. Disease will spread quickly and at the far end I see a movie.
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he also thinks about how on producing a blond child his mother was killed and his blond haired brother cast into the fire.
That's interesting. I just reread TDTCB, Ch. 12 for the Almanac and Cnaiur reflects on how they killed his mother when she gave birth to a blond girl - I wonder... a symptom of Cnaiur's madness by TWP or twins?
coobek, Wilshire. You've given me a fantastic idea. Big +1.
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he also thinks about how on producing a blond child his mother was killed and his blond haired brother cast into the fire.
That's interesting. I just reread TDTCB, Ch. 12 for the Almanac and Cnaiur reflects on how they killed his mother when she gave birth to a blond girl - I wonder... a symptom of Cnaiur's madness by TWP or twins?
coobek, Wilshire. You've given me a fantastic idea. Big +1.
Looked it up on my kindle
7% into the book first Cnauir chapter when he is watching Kellhus talk, and just before he asks him if he still has his chorae.
"Images, stark and dry, of the Steppe assailed him. The other woman tearing at his mothers hair, clawing at her face, clubbing her with rocks, stabbing at her with sticks. Mother! A bawling infant is hoisted from her yaksh, tossed into the all-cleansing fire- his blonde-haired half brother. The stone faces of the men turning away from his look. . ."
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From my Almanac post, “two seasons later, the other woman strangled his mother for giving birth to a blonde girl" (TDTCB, p371).
Retcon, batshit, or twins?
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Twins I'd say.
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I wonder why they didn't kill the girl.
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I vote for "unfortunate mistake caused by writing and re-writing the story over 20 years". ;)
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I vote for "unfortunate mistake caused by writing and re-writing the story over 20 years". ;)
Same.
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Strangled his mum for giving birth to a girl, then threw the baby into the fire cuz it kept changing gender.
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Lmao. +1 Curethan.
The only contrary evidence I can offer, Duskweaver & themerchant, is that there is such a distinction between how they treat a boy and how they treat a girl born of, but not of, the People of War...
The girl is allowed to live. The boy gets tossed into a fire. It seems like a really obvious mistake - especially while writing the line - because I'm sure Bakker has the cultural practices of the Scylvendi pretty well decided, neh?
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If nothing else, Anissi proves half-Norsirai children are OK if they're girls. ;)
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Boys are potential threats right?
Girls though are property. And blonds are rare in their part of the world. Why burn up some valuable property when you could sell a girl to another tribe for some pretty great horses. Or salt.
Also, just an unreliable narrator and Cnaiur doesn't remember it right or know the truth, he only knows the story he's told himself. If the scylvendi women broke custom in how they treated his mother's blond haired offspring then that breaking of custom would have a corresponding shattering effect on Cnaiur, leaving him with a more erratic impression of the event. Perhaps he tells himself it was a boy, because a wife giving birth to a slave's male child would be an offense worth killing the child. Perhaps he tells himself it was a girl because girls are girls, thus it's obviously okay to kill the child. Perhaps it was neither gender, but a 'thing' like the ones Esmenet and the others bore, and Cnaiur can't process that, so he variably calls it girl or boy because it is more convenient to give it a familiar label and dismiss the thought than the inconvenient thought of recalling his mother giving birth to a monster--particularly when the man who impregnated her had also been filling Cnaiur with his semen as well. All the worse if he gets some jealous 'pleasure' at the thought of his mother's death because her death means that one of Moenghus' other lovers is gone, leaving him all to Cnaiur. By repressing/redirecting and labeling the event Cnaiur can channel the thoughts away from a direction that will remind him of his sexual relations with Moenghus.
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Perhaps it was neither gender, but a 'thing' like the ones Esmenet and the others bore, and Cnaiur can't process that, so he variably calls it girl or boy because it is more convenient to give it a familiar label
This makes sense. The Scylvendi don't seem to have a word, a cultural concept, of 'homosexual', so it's logical they wouldn't have one for 'intersex' either. Just as Cnaiur can only grasp his sexuality in terms of dominating other men ("most violent of all men", "breaker of horses and men") and 'proving' his normality by taking Serwe ("my proof! my prize!"), so he can only use the terms and concepts his culture has provided him with to describe his half-sibling. It cannot be anything other than either 'boy' or 'girl', just as Cnaiur himself cannot be anything other than 'man' and sex cannot be anything other than a 'violent' 'breaking'.
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So I was kinda right in the other post where I thought they killed the baby - I just thought it was a girl that was killed.
Possibly the Scylvendi are used to taking slave wives back from their pilgrimages. Thus a girl baby taken in isn't so anathama to their culture.
The thing is, I'd bet it's a mistake, but it's also, IMO, so damn easy to rationalise after the fact that it may as well be taken as canon.
But although that's fun to do, the real deal is to ask the guy.
Actually, sounds like a fine excuse for fan fiction!? The blonde Scylvendi! (or do I remember wrong and they don't all have black hair?)
then threw the baby into the fire cuz it kept changing gender.
Win! lol!
Looked it up on my kindle
Now that's the power of PDF! I almost want to pirate the books I own in dead tree format, so I can do searches!
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If nothing else, Anissi proves half-Norsirai children are OK if they're girls. ;)
Lol, weren't you the one rocking my boat on Cnaiur loving his half-sister... some nonsense about birth dates, decades removed from each other :)?
+1 on girls = property, lockesnow... But Cnaiur's Mom owns property... Gah! Property owning property. What had Earwa come to?
Big +1 on own Birthing Abominations and introspective indigestion ;).
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Lol, weren't you the one rocking my boat on Cnaiur loving his half-sister... some nonsense about birth dates, decades removed from each other :)?
The dates (assuming the EG is accurate) indicate that Anissi is not the daughter of Moenghus by Cnaiur's mother. She's still half-Norsirai, though, according to tDtCB (actually, I'm going by her PoN wiki entry (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Anissi), since I've lent my copy of tDtCB to my brother). So the Utemot don't seem to have an automatic "kill all half-blooded children" policy.
+1 on girls = property, lockesnow... But Cnaiur's Mom owns property... Gah! Property owning property. What had Earwa come to?
If RSB is serious about the Scylvendi being based in some ways on the real-world Scythians and Sarmatians, then women owning property would make sense. Part of what made the Greeks and Romans view the Scythian and Sarmatian tribes as weird and alien was their treatment of women as (at least in some ways) equal to men. Gave rise to the Amazon myths, among other things.
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Anissi could be Moenghus' granddaughter, but I think Kellhus might have seen that stamped in her face.
and even if Moenghus' granddaughter were only 1/4 Norsirai, if the Norsirai or Dunyanic traits are dominant then a 1/4 would look like a half. Her children, if they were blond, would probably be called half Norsirai as well.
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Perhaps, I might have added the [jokes][/jokes] tag to both those, Duskweaver ;). I thought I was being obvious previously in suggesting that it was telling of Scylvendi culture, as you highlighted, that they burnt the boy and kept the girl.
+1 lockesnow on Mendellian traits - if I recall correctly. And I think that's also the consensus Duskweaver and I came to last time about Kellhus reading Anissi's heritage in her face. Plus Anissi would betray or we'd think she would betray half-Dunyain characteristics.
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Perhaps, I might have added the [jokes][/jokes] tag to both those, Duskweaver ;).
No, I got that. It's just that the ex-teacher in me often has a pathological need to clarify things, even when it's not strictly necessary. People tell me it's a form of arrogance, but what the hell do they know? ;)
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So long as you doth not protest my pathological need to respond in kind ;)... actually, probably all too human, in my case.
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When maithenet is killed his last words to esmenet are, "tell my brother that..." and he's dead. That conversation is yet an extension of this one caused by kelmomas.
And before I forget, the daughter its safe. Where? And did esmi only tell kel about the passageways but not her youngest daughter?
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Theliopa is the elder daughter (if that is who you are referring to). I think Esmenet dotes on Kelmomas far more than Theliopa, who she does note feel she can relate to like she can Kelmomas (even though that feeling is merely conditioned). Kelmomas will have the advantage of the passageways where the others will not. Where Theliopa is, though, I cannot say.
Maithanet's last line troubles me. Why, as a writer of Bakkers style, include it at all? We had just been clued in to how misguided the half-Dunyain Maithanet had been this whole time, so perhaps this final line with it's gravitas is, even though lacking plot information, an indication that Maithanet had figured it all out at the last second, and it is up to the reader to pick up on that and finish his thought using the available information! Though, this is coming from someone who believes that Bakker is trying to condition the reader as much or more than the Dunyain condition the Dramatis personæ, so, take it as you will :D
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Theliopa is a critical resource... she's Esmenet's copy of the Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa. Anyone would be foolish to simply dispose of her.
Also, it's clear that Maithanet, thinking Esmenet finally cracked, was doing what he could to safeguard the Empire (including making sure the children are safe, during and after the Custodian's Revolt) - until he realizes about Kelmomas, when Inrilatas makes note in the conversation of this thread title. By then Maithanet realizes all the gears, already, in motion, by Kellhus and by Kelmomas and Esmenet is just a cog/goal. More importantly, that Kellhus, likely doesn't care about the details of the New Empire's fall or that he's factored the fall/near-fall into his plans - seeing farther than his flerwed half-relations.
Maithanet's last line troubles me. Why, as a writer of Bakkers style, include it at all? We had just been clued in to how misguided the half-Dunyain Maithanet had been this whole time, so perhaps this final line with it's gravitas is, even though lacking plot information, an indication that Maithanet had figured it all out at the last second, and it is up to the reader to pick up on that and finish his thought using the available information! Though, this is coming from someone who believes that Bakker is trying to condition the reader as much or more than the Dunyain condition the Dramatis personæ, so, take it as you will :D
So tropy as to practically beg subversion ;)?
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So tropy as to practically beg subversion ;)?
It has no hope of subverting the cliched "melodramatic dying words" trope, but I have hope that Maitha will offer us more revelations yet :P
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I can think of some meager twests rather than whatever he was going to say being really, truly important... No-Revelation at All? Flerwed Probability? Maithanet is speaking to someone else there - a) because Kellhus was watching b) insert entity here?
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Maitha had already warned Esmi about kelmomas, then said to here it will be revealed in time.
So he wouldn't repeat himself for no reason, especially if these are his last words. Maitha's last words are a warning, some sort of new warning to his brother. I just wonder what about.
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"-- the White-Luck killed me..." ?
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I just read this thread again and I find it hilarious that we spent a full two pages on the Anissi's parentage, Scylvendi birth customs and women owning property, and then settle back onto Maithanet's final tropy words...
What a great thread though.
Also, shameless bump 8).
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Tangents are the life-blood of the forum.
Surprised that this has 5 pages of responses. Tagging this so I won't miss any new replies.
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This conversation is one of my absolute favorite parts of all the books. I desperately hope for more dunyain/half-dunyain tete-a-tetes in TUC or wherever.
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Yeah - amazing that Kellhus/Moenghus, Inrilatas/Kelmomas, and Maithanet/Inrilatas are three of the most interesting moments in the books.
Kellhus/Maithanet flashbacks/commune to the Outside, please?!
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Hoping for a Theli-Kelmomas convo in TUC. Maybe Theli's sent in to retrieve Kel from the shadow palace?