The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:21:28 pm
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I don't know why I do this* but I thought I would take the couple trends that have emerged from the Excerpt - The Unholy Consult, Chapter One (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/excerpt-the-unholy-consult-chapter-one-t1246331.html) thread and create individual threads for them.
*Sometimes individuals aren't paying the attention to unrelated threads as the rest of us are and I'd like to maximize our community engagement.
So Saccarees & the Dunyain of the New Empire...
Does Apperens Saccarees mastery of Metagnostic Cants mean he is, in fact, Dunyain and that there are others secreted among the Kellian Empire at Kellhus' behest?
OR
Is this another case where Bakker classically understates an idea, Saccarees only being mentioned as the first of humankind to use the Metagnosis and human Metagnostic sorcerers will abound in The Unholy Consult?
After all, mastery by one and communicative dissemination is the staple of human innovation from tool use on... Perhaps after Kellhus figured Metagnostic sorcery out, it was sufficiently easy to teach to the Mandate and anyone else he chose.
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I can't recall. Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?
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I can't recall. Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?
I do not believe so, but there is a passage in WLW where he pulls a very Dunyain social move on the grandmaster of the Vokalati. Could be a strong hint. Could be a herring.
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Wilshire's WLW quotes from the Unholy Consult (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/excerpt-the-unholy-consult-chapter-one-t1246331-40.html#p11985157)[/u][/url] thread:
"No Schoolmen was as famed as Apperens Saccarees, who had stood high among the Empire's Exalt-Ministers. His voice proved a tonic for the Arm of the South's nightly war-councils, for it carried both the authority of the Aspect-Emperor and the promise of tactical acumen."
Pg. 456
"Could it be?" Carindusu asked in derision. "Have the fabled Dreams of the First Apocalypse led the illustrious Saccarees astray?"
"Yes," the Mandate Grandmaster replied, his honesty so genuine, his humility so reminiscent of their Lord-and-God, that Carindusu found himself shamed before his peers a third time.
Pg. 460
Pretty sure these are the only two Saccarees quotes that highlight his Dunyainness.
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Pretty sure these are the only two Saccarees quotes that highlight his Dunyainness.
Well to be honest, I did not recognize the name when it was first brought up. I just went scanning through the last few Ordeal chapters until I saw his name. There could very well be earlier descriptions of him, Dunyainness and physical, that I didn't find (I wasn't really looking for it at the time, just trying to help out Triskele's theory about Saccarees).
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Lol, no, I was condoning your research. I believe there are only five explicit references to Saccarees in WLW - not counting the battle at the Five Fingers.
The first when the Ordeal splits into the four armies, where he's described as the first Schoolman to learn Metagnostic Cants.
The bulk three, including the two you quoted, are in the Carindusu/Saccarees verbal fencing in the war councils of the Army of the South.
The fifth is describing how Saccarees is being ostracized by all Schoolman for rumoured fratricide and brooding because of it - two things that are very undunyain-like.
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Brooding doesn't seem a very efficient way to achieve your goals amongst world born, indeed.
How old is Saccarees supposed to be?
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fratricide, patricide, close enough :P
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True but being ostracized from your community of peers, not so much.
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What do you mean by that?
Moe was exiled and he was dunyain.
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How does it benefit a Dunyain within a human population though?
So far the only claim to flame Saccarees as Dunyain is his ability, as the first, to handle the abstraction of Metagnostic sorcery and the herrings you highlighted in the quotes, Wilshire.
Kellhus is the Lord-and-God of Earwa. Saccarees is looking like the sore loser in the corner...
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Oh I see. I couldn't figure out where you were going with that.
The only thing I can think of is that perhaps he is specifically trying to not be Kell. Hiding in plain sight wouldn't work if he was a complete god figure like Kell. If Kell was trying to hide dunyain in his army he wouldn't want anyone to know about it.
A weak theory though.
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Oh I see. I couldn't figure out where you were going with that.
A weak theory though.
Was this directed at me?
For the record, I am not at all confident that Saccarees is Dunyain. I think it a possibility, but it could be a mistake or a herring.
Bakker lead a bit of a rope a dope w/ Sarl and Soma in TJE on someone being a skin spy. In hindsight, it couldn't be clearer about Soma, but I was deceived at the time. Never certain. Uncertain. As I am now.
It's not just that I think Saccarees might be Dunyain. It's also that I have a terribly hard time accepting that all of Ishual has been destroyed. But it's possible.
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Nah, at me, Trisk. And the weak theory part was actually referencing Wilshire's own post, I believe, trying to salvage a Dunyain theory. Not everything is about you ;).
Many think Saccarees Dunyain... Metagnostic abstraction might simply elude the weak minded.
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Yeah Madness is right, I was acknowledging that I was grasping at straws to try and answer his question. It was the best I could come up with though, so I posted it anyways.
I think the idea that there are Dunyain hidden in the army to be an entertaining one, and I'm certainly not trying to discount its possibility.
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Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).
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Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).
That's an interesting catch.
If you go to Nautzera's entry in the TTT appendix, he is only referred to as a senior member of the Quorum.
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Achamian comments on the Quorum as being a layer of organization against tyranny within the Mandate.
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Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).
Much easier for Kellhus to control if they have a Grandmaster.
And easy to have the person you want to be a grandmaster by handing off a meta-gnosis spell.
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I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.
Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.
I find the whole incident a bit odd.
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I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.
Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.
I find the whole incident a bit odd.
Really? To me it look like Carindusu was a bitter old hag who was jealous of the Mandate (as all the anagogic schools are). He was always looking to discredit Saccarees whenever he could. Saccarees seem to put up with him pretty well, and I think the last line, before Carindusu goes mad, when Saccarees says something along the lines of 'let me show you your prize' was actually just a generous gesture. A attempt to boost his moral, remind him why he was here fighting, during a battle that was all but lost at that point.
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Welcome to the thunderdome, SE.
My interpretation was that Carindusu is something of a Conphas. Those scenes highlight that Carindusu is a constantly trying to emphasize his own superiority. Saccarees, for the most part, simply plays the reactions deftly.
+1, Wilshire.
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I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.
Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.
I find the whole incident a bit odd.
It's an interesting idea that I wouldn't discount.
However, I think it's possible that it just occurred naturally as it seemed that Carindusu was presented from the beginning as one who was mad w/ jealousy of the Gnosis. So he may have set himself up for his shamings in the way he challenged Saccarees.
Then there's the whole rumored theft of the Gnosis by Carindusu. We don't really get confirmation on that do we?
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Oh hi guys lol.
Nah, Trisk, we never do... I think it would have been fairly obvious to the Mandate if they did... wouldn't they instantly recognize the use of the Gnosis by the Vokalati?
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lol 3 posts in as many minutes from as many people.
yeah even the bruise left behind by the gnosis is different. There is a point when the skin eaters cross the path of one of the battles and Akka mentions something like the gnosis being distinguishable from the anagogic, like a sword cutting the ground compared to a bludgeon.
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lol 3 posts in as many minutes from as many people.
yeah even the bruise left behind by the gnosis is different. There is a point when the skin eaters cross the path of one of the battles and Akka mentions something like the gnosis being distinguishable from the anagogic, like a sword cutting the ground compared to a bludgeon.
Wilshire, in your account of Bakker's reading from TUC last week, you mentioned that Serwa found a ruin with a faint mark of a kind she didn't recognize. Wonder if that represents a third kind of sorcery -- perhaps Aporic?
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:twisted: Yes, Armitage!
Maybe we're becoming a forum, Wilshire... or maybe Westeros is still down lol.
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Maybe we're becoming a forum, Wilshire...
:shock:
Wilshire, in your account of Bakker's reading from TUC last week, you mentioned that Serwa found a ruin with a faint mark of a kind she didn't recognize. Wonder if that represents a third kind of sorcery -- perhaps Aporic?
A third type of sorcery is probable as each type, as far as we know, has its own kind of bruise, though Aporic I'm skeptical. They mentioned that the ruins were exceedingly old, so old it was likely the Nonmen may not have known of its existence or that they have long since forgotten it (though now I realize that knowing exactly what she said would have been rather important, since the Nonmen forget most things anyway.). The mark is mentioned almost entierly in passings, perhaps not even a dozen words. A passing fancy, nothing more. This probably means its important or some kind of foreshadowing.
"I will call this place 'Nameless', in reverence to your ignorance" -Moenghus to Serwa about the ruins (as close to a direct quote of my memory would offer)
Though I do not recall the origins of the Aporic school. Do we know about when it was developed?
If it is old enough, there is a chance. Time here is the main variable to consider. It has been hinted that the Consult have new tricks, maybe they have found an entirely forgotten branch of magic.
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Though I do not recall the origins of the Aporic school. Do we know about when it was developed?
If it is old enough, there is a chance. Time here is the main variable to consider. It has been hinted that the Consult have new tricks, maybe they have found an entirely forgotten branch of magic.
The Aporetics went over to the Inchoroi around the time of the Womb-Plague, just as the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars were breaking out. So the Aporos is somewhat older than that -- but I didn't find any reference to its creation in the books. Of course, we don't know when Gnostic sorcery was developed either, do we?
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However, I think it's possible that it just occurred naturally as it seemed that Carindusu was presented from the beginning as one who was mad w/ jealousy of the Gnosis. So he may have set himself up for his shamings in the way he challenged Saccarees.
The whole battle was suspicious. The river crossing was an obvious moment of crisis. Consult involvement was likely and should have been expected. Why wasn't it? Did AK simply not care? Was there something more important? Or was it a planned sacrifice? A rerun of the Vulgar Holy War? It seems excessive if all you want to do is justify a bit of near cannibalism.
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My crackpot theory is that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned by AK all along.
Carindusu could possibly have been/will be turned to the side of the Consult. He is obviously mad with jealousy and resentment. AK could have read his face and seen the possibility of betrayal in him.
I mean, imagine if Aurang pops in and offered Carindusu the Gnosis, salvation and other forbidden goodies in return for betraying the Ordeal.
Perhaps baiting Carindusu to attack the Mandate was the only way to make it happen without people asking too many questions.
I agree with generic, something if definitely off with the whole battle.
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My crackpot theory is that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned by AK all along.
Perhaps baiting Carindusu to attack the Mandate was the only way to make it happen without people asking too many questions.
I like that thought, but that still begs the question of why AK couldn't posses him. Was he like Conphas? Too self centred to be controlled? And if it is only a matter of one person I'm sure it would have been possible to arrange an accident that wouldn't include the loss of dozens of Schoolmen.
Assuming the Ordeal is real I can think of one thing that could justify the expense. AK intends to bring the old Schools into the fold of the Mandate and release the Gnosis. Both the Saik and the Scarlet Spires were broken in TTT. The Sisterhood is his creation. The mercenary School is lead by someone described as more of a priest. That leaves only one School that risks developing delusions of grandeur. And now it is gone. The remnants can be recycled.
Loose halve a School and a quarter of your army and get an army of Gnostics that follows your orders.
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Loose halve a School and a quarter of your army and get an army of Gnostics that follows your orders.
Seems like a pretty safe gambit to me. A couple of Pawns for a Queen? Sure.
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regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.
Literally underground.
without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?
Ugh. Need new book now!
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regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.
Literally underground.
without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?
Ugh. Need new book now!
I love this idea.
I'm not convinced said personage is dead; even if he is, I think that what was revealed about him and his Mark will turn out to be awfully important.
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regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.
Literally underground.
without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?
Ugh. Need new book now!
dont worry you arnt behind. It is from my discussion in the Post Laurier topic. The scene takes place in an open field on the other side of the of the Demua Mountains (somewhere between ishterebinth and the mountains). The chapter except was from chapter 3.
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It's hardly surprising that the Grandmaster of the Mandate has good social and political skills as well as being skilled at magic. Those are pretty much a requirement of the job. There's a long list of characters that are quite competent without being Dunyain.
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It's hardly surprising that the Grandmaster of the Mandate has good social and political skills as well as being skilled at magic. Those are pretty much a requirement of the job. There's a long list of characters that are quite competent without being Dunyain.
Also, I don't think it's un-Dunyain-like to brood about supposed fratricide...not if that is what circumstance requires...it would be most Dunyain-like.
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Here, here, CC.
Lol, Trisk. There's lots of good reasons Saccarees could be Dunyain too :P.
I really do think that Kellhus is unconcerned with the loss of the Mandate - these topics might warrant new threads.
To break that down quick.
I do think that the Mandate and the Vokalati basically destroyed themselves. Obviously, this contention is up to debate until TUC. However, for thoughts, anyone who completes the ritual with Seswatha's Heart is going to be at least on average as good a sorcerer as Seswatha.
This suggests that Swayali or Mandati are interchangeable digits in the algebra of war.
More importantly, I think that Kellhus is unconcerned because he has convinced Iyokus and the Scarlet Spires to utilize the Daimos in concert when necessary for combat... say, Dagliash ;).
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Heh - That would be pretty awesome to see the Consult whose very purpose is to avoid damnation get a nice dose of the Daimos for a foreshadowing.
That is another wild thing to think about...Kellhus has undoubtedly taken the Gnosis to a level previously unseen. Why couldn't he do that w/ the Daimos too? Iyokus shows him the basics and then he improves on it.
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Weren't you behind "Iyokus' Gift," Trisk? The idea that Kellhus kills the remaining two Ciphrang Iyokus enslaved in the PON, thus effectively freeing the Necromancer from damnation?
Lol, though imagine... eh? Kellhus apparently uses it to open a personal fucking portal to the Outside for himself? Metadaimos!!!
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Weren't you behind "Iyokus' Gift," Trisk? The idea that Kellhus kills the remaining two Ciphrang Iyokus enslaved in the PON, thus effectively freeing the Necromancer from damnation?
Lol, though imagine... eh? Kellhus apparently uses it to open a personal fucking portal to the Outside for himself? Metadaimos!!!
I think that I may have been...just an idea, but we do know that Kellhus carries the two demon heads, and we are told that Kellhus worked w/ Iyokus on going to the Outside.
Although this opens up some other wild possibilities...let's assume the moment that Kellhus has literally gone into the Outside and slain demons...the types of Ciphrang that one might summon w/ the Daimos.
If that is the case...can Kellhus slay other things in the Outside? Can he kill The Hundred?
If there actually is a transcendent Solitary God as the Fanim believe, I wonder if that would be the one entity beyond the reach of Kellhus.
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I'm going to end up having creating a couple new threads over the next day or two. But for now:
Some relevancies:
"The Decapitants, as the demonic heads had come to be called ... Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unificiation Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare to ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer... (WLW, p565).
"'What did you see?' Nin'sariccas asked with what seemed genuine curiousity. 'What did you find?'
'God... broken into a million warring splinters.'
A grim nod. 'We worship the spaces between the Gods'" (p567).
These come from the meeting between the Nonman Emissary Nin'sariccas and Kellhus - some interesting stuff is suggested about "substitutions" (p566) throughout the conversation.
It seems he, Kellhus himself, went bodily - or spiritually - to the Outside.
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Wheels within wheels. It may have been truth that he went to the outside in some aspect, body/spirit/whatever. This does not discount, however, the fact that he may have simply killed a couple summoned Ciphrang. After all, stories are always better with visual aids, and proofs more easily swallowed when they can be seen.
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I can't recall. Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?
I do not believe so, but there is a passage in WLW where he pulls a very Dunyain social move on the grandmaster of the Vokalati. Could be a strong hint. Could be a herring.
I know this is an old thread, but have been doing a re-read. On TJE right now and remembered this topic when I came across a passage:
"Several Schoolmen sat at the table below them: an old bearded man wearing robes similar to Eskeles, only trimmed in gold; a Nilnameshi with ringed nostrils and tattooed cheeks; ..."
(My bolding above) The scene is where Sorweel and Eskeles attend Kellhus' audience in the Umbilicus, where he's floating around scrutinizing everyone. The passage describes all the Grandmasters of the Schools, so logically this must be Saccarees. Not much of a description, but there you go.
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I know this is an old thread, but have been doing a re-read.
Not necessarily directed at you, Somnambulist, moreso those who read-only. You've simply offered another of Anagke's opportunities.
I cannot condone this kind of pervading attitude through my inaction (so I must spend some words here).
This forum has existed for about a year and a half now. In the first at the forumer TSA, we had over two hundred members (none of whom seem to have been Sranc Spam) and who generated the majority of the content on TSA in the ebbs and flows of their participation. All which was ported here to the new reincarnation after the admin system at forumer went sideways.
Since neither many of the content-generating members from forumer TSA post here and the content-generating members from here have sometimes not posted on the old forum, if it was up to me I would bump each and every single thread. But I'd rather it serve as an opportunity for others to do as they feel compelled.
Not even the dead escape the Benjuka Plate.
Though on that note, anyone have any suggestions at how many pages to cap a thread - I think people will be eventually too intimidated to wade through the 100 pages of TSA related art ;)?
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"Several Schoolmen sat at the table below them: an old bearded man wearing robes similar to Eskeles, only trimmed in gold; a Nilnameshi with ringed nostrils and tattooed cheeks; ..."
(My bolding above) The scene is where Sorweel and Eskeles attend Kellhus' audience in the Umbilicus, where he's floating around scrutinizing everyone. The passage describes all the Grandmasters of the Schools, so logically this must be Saccarees. Not much of a description, but there you go.
I didn't picture him as old/bearded, thanks for posting that here.
Though on that note, anyone have any suggestions at how many pages to cap a thread - I think people will be eventually too intimidated to wade through the 100 pages of TSA related art ;)?
Difficult question to answer. I'd say that in order to make this site more "newbie" friendly, and considering how lower out postership is, that maybe cap it at 2 or 3 pages.
On the other hand, that would be a bit irritating for those having a lenghly conversation about this or that topic. I'm conflicted.
Sooo there's my non-answer.
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Lol...
I was originally oriented by Westeros' 21 pages and TSA related art is at 28. Maybe I'll stop it at 30 and TSA related art II can happen.
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Well at that point why bother? It takes months to get our most popular topic up that high. There will only be a few topics that will probably ever run into that road block.
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Oh, don't be so sure. I think the post kind is likely to spike after TUC is released. People who have browsed her or posted in the past will be likely to want to ruminate at least a little about whatever conclusion this saga gets.
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I think there will be a spike too.
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Optimism? I can't condone this.
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You know I have a fucked-up optimist streak :P.
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I didn't know there were any optimists that read bakker, I figured those venn diagrams never overlapped.
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This is Madness!
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Lol - and this was never Sparta. That movie ruined my budding online presence...
Also, I figured it'd be evident from my posts that I believe we humans can affect change for better?
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Well you continue to ruin it yourself sir. I had no notion of 300 in that sentence when i wrote it.
I think they can too. I just don't think it likely, and certainly not on their own without some kind of prodding (or monetized incentive).
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Could not watch all of 300. I loved reading about ancient Hellenic culture when I was young and I disagreed with almost every frame that I saw.
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Could not watch all of 300. I loved reading about ancient Hellenic culture when I was young and I disagreed with almost every frame that I saw.
I thought it was great. I'll put on the dunce cap though if you wish.
In truth, its a movie and not a documentary, so I can accept it. I try not to let bad physics or impossible science ruin scifi or action or other movies, so I try not to let bad history ruin those kinds of movies. I just smile, aknowledge that I know better, and move on to enjoy the movie.
Shit, is that optimism is some form... I must try to be more cynical in the future.... madness... From what darkness do these thoughts arise?!
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Haha, yes. Doesn't help that I think Frank Miller is a tosser either. It was more than just the hollywood historical perspective though. As an aussie, I burst out laughing everytime I saw David Wenham with his painted-on abs too.
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After reading this thread, I feel really stupid for not thinking Saccarees was Dunyain. I guess I just assumed that Kellhus would be able to teach at least one follower, but that he wouldn't really want many people to do his kind of sorcery.
I now think that that concern would be totally outweighed by whatever is going to come out of Golgotterath. Before reading the TSA forum, I was grossly underestimating the powers/numbers of Consult quya.
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I don't remember my own arguments, but I don't think he is a Dunyain.
Kellhus found a womb that could bare his seed, I'm sure he could find intellects that could bare his sermons.
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If Saccarees is not Dunyain and is simply someone with sufficient native intelligence and conditioning from Kellhus, is it at all weird that Kellhus has made only one? I would think that he'd want to make as many as possible and that it would be a really high priority. No world-born will ever compete with him in magic, so the benefit would be all good.
Perhaps he made Saccarees as another way to spur the schools on? "Look what I can teach you to do once you've helped the Great Ordeal?"
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I've probably said it in this thread before. Just because we've only seen Serwa and Saccarees does not mean they are the only two who can work Metagnostic sorcery. Saccarees being labelled as the "first" to achieve Metagnostic Cants implies that there are others.
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True, true--i had forgot. :(
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Bakker likes to hide things in plain site. I believe this is one of those instances. We read "first" and assume "only". Perhaps those that died in the battle where simply those who had not mastered the metagnosis yet.
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If the description of the gold trimmed robed Schoolman is indeed Saccarees, and if he is a Nilnameshi, doesn't that immediately discredited him as being a bona fide Dunyain? Aren't all Dunyain just by merit of their geography and eugenics breeding all going to be Norsirai. While a Nilnameshi would be a completely different ethnic group. I'm one to support the notion that Saccarees is basically one of Kellhus greatest pupils and has been training and training him. The conclusion being, that even a world-born human through tremendous cognitive discipline, mental focus and zeal can actually grasp the Metagnosis, grasp it, but certainly not master it like the Holy Aspect-Emperor.
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Bakker has done well in keeping Kellhus' full limitations (which he must have) from us, though we seem to know from Kelmomas' that Kellhus is not tired as he appears to be...
I write this to suggest that we don't know how hard it is for the worldborn to use the Metagnosis.
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We know little of the original Dunyain, other than that they hailed form North, Tryse or something like that. It was a big city, and not a particularly exclusive club. Any motley of races/ethnicities could have been among them, not to mention that in order to remain genetically unrelated enough to breed for 2000+ years they would require all ethnicities to keep the gene pool from collapsing on itself.
We don't have any idea what the other Dunyain look like, only that the Anasurimbor line bares family resemblance, which makes sense.
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They came from Sauglish and were very likely mostly Norisirai.
Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics
(originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and
practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered
sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High
Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.
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Big cities tend to be more diverse though, which is where my speculation comes from.
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Hasn't Bakker iterated that Earwa is five times the size of Europe? So presumably the distance between Tryse and Mehtsonc is the equivalent of the distance between London and maybe, Samarkand on the Iranian plateau. I can't imagine that enough Ketyai would have an established community in Kuniuri to have that much of an effect on the ethnic composition of the Dunyain sect. And we don't know for sure how cosmopolitan Sauglish is or any cities of the Ancient North. But it's all speculation still.
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The Breaking of the Gates and the Cuno/Halaroi wars seem to be the only major migratory event in Earwa.
The cultures are pretty insular. Traders are the only real international exchange.
Neighboring nobility might send their children for teaching, I guess (much like Athens at it's height). Perhaps some of them could have gotten mixed up in weird ascetic cults, but I think most would be locals.
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Thats all great, but unfortunately if they were all essentially ethnically identical, they wouldn't have made it 2000 years. My best guess is that they specifically sought out those few members of different heritage that they could fine, seduced them as the Dunyain do, for the specific purpose to maintaining a viable genetic stock that would sustain them through their isolation.
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But how does Kellhus look like his ancestor from 2,000 years ago?
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Assuming genetics even work the same in Earwa, how would the Dunyain have any idea as to the minimum viable population required and details of genetic diversity related to heritage?
Further, seeing as they went to Ishual during the years of the crib, future generations would have seemed unlikely. ;)
Anyway I think its a moot point, a quick google search reveals a study at http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html (http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html) which suggests that North America may have been settled by only 70 people, not an unreasonable estimate of the original dunyain numbers.
It's situations like those that naturally create taboos and breeding patterns. As long as the population has enough mating pairs to avoid regular inbreeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding) they should be fine.
Low ebb populations tend to drive evolution; starting from a small group of people like that could simply result in dominant inheritances - what we think of as racial characteristics (red hair, dark skin, whatever). Seeing as the dunyain were also actively weeding out dysfunctionals, the potential for rapid evolutionary change is only improved.
Ishual seems pretty big and we have no idea what their population levels were like as the series begins. I would imagine they would have numbered in the hundreds at least.
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For my money, I would have to say it has something to do with the Anasurimbor bloodline. That family is obviously important for some reason, and its possible that it influences reproduction (strong seed forces the womb, Yatwer, world conspires, etc.)
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Assuming genetics even work the same in Earwa, how would the Dunyain have any idea as to the minimum viable population required and details of genetic diversity related to heritage?
Further, seeing as they went to Ishual during the years of the crib, future generations would have seemed unlikely. ;)
Anyway I think its a moot point, a quick google search reveals a study at http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html (http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html) which suggests that North America may have been settled by only 70 people, not an unreasonable estimate of the original dunyain numbers.
It's situations like those that naturally create taboos and breeding patterns. As long as the population has enough mating pairs to avoid regular inbreeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding) they should be fine.
Low ebb populations tend to drive evolution; starting from a small group of people like that could simply result in dominant inheritances - what we think of as racial characteristics (red hair, dark skin, whatever). Seeing as the dunyain were also actively weeding out dysfunctionals, the potential for rapid evolutionary change is only improved.
Ishual seems pretty big and we have no idea what their population levels were like as the series begins. I would imagine they would have numbered in the hundreds at least.
I've brought this subject up before here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.0
But your evidence suggested the group of Dunyain settlers wouldn't need to be particularly diverse. We might perhaps be a bit off topic here, but that link is a good place to continue ;).
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But how does Kellhus look like his ancestor from 2,000 years ago?
Maybe he doesn't! Perhaps Seswatha behind the scenes is manipulating Akka's mind to make him think that Kellhus looks like Anasurimbors of yore!
I don't buy that bit about the original Dunyain burning the sorcerers' books. They've been teleporting for ages to improve their breeding stock.
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But how does Kellhus look like his ancestor from 2,000 years ago?
Maybe he doesn't! Perhaps Seswatha behind the scenes is manipulating Akka's mind to make him think that Kellhus looks like Anasurimbors of yore!
I don't buy that bit about the original Dunyain burning the sorcerers' books. They've been teleporting for ages to improve their breeding stock.
For what it's worth, Mekeritrig sees the resemblance as well.
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Goddamnit, that's true.