Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal

  • 62 Replies
  • 32490 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2013, 09:11:13 pm »
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?  I was rereading the conversation between Maithanet and Esmenet today.  Maithanet goes through the thought-process of why Kellhus would leave Esmi in charge of the Empire instead of a half-Dunyain.  And his conclusion is ultimately that Kellhus does not care because it does not matter.  Either the Great Ordeal succeeds in destroying the Ark, or the No-God walks and the Three Seas will be united anyway.  While we cannot know for sure at this point, I suspect that Maithanet is correct.  The New Empire was simply a tool to prepare the way for the Great Ordeal.  Nothing more.

On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire.  He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet.  Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire?  Or is he in contact with someone?  And if so, who?

Back to Yatwer for a moment...

As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing.  I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements.  The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing.  Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.

I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way? 

One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 02:19:33 am »
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?

I can't see why he wouldn't return. After all, if he wins and survives, where else would he go? Zeum?
He can not care what happens to his Empire, but that doesn't me he can't return. Even if it falls into enemy hands, he can take any fortified city by himself, especially since most of the chorae are gone. After that, he just needs to preach for a few days and convert everyone back.


On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire.  He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet.  Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire?  Or is he in contact with someone?  And if so, who?
Can't remember if their conversation happened with fire around. I image if he can watch all the great ordeal fires, he could have cast a little spell on those back home.

Back to Yatwer for a moment...

As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing.  I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements.  The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing.  Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.
I'm equally confused

I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way? 
I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.

One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...
I'd be very surprised if nothing was cleared up by the end, but equally surprised if everything was explained. There will be plenty of stuff for us to argue about once TUC is released.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Callan S.

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Warrior-Profit
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
    • Philosopher Gamer
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2013, 05:22:11 am »
Quote
if she's looking back from the end of time
Gah...this is where writing just becomes too obscure for me. Too up in the air. What does the described position the gods hold in time mean? Anything that comes to mind, pretty much.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2013, 08:36:06 am »
On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire.  He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet.  Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire?  Or is he in contact with someone?  And if so, who?
slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire.  Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?
Quote
Back to Yatwer for a moment...

As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing.  I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements.  The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing.  Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.

I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way? 
Well Serwe prayed a lot and kept getting her prayers answered, so I'd think we would see a similar result and a similar level of significance in the prayers of Serwe and Mimara.  Remember this is the sort of thing alongside dreams or nature-vocalizations that Kellhus dismisses as meaningless noise but from the readerly level (I feel like saying the 'meta level' has too much baggage that accompanies the phrase), anyway, from a readerly-level  it is not meaningless noise because readers get to see it, and something that makes it 'on screen' in a piece of fiction is privileged information simply because it exists.  So even though from Kellhus perspective there's lots of noise he's filtering out, from a reader's perspective we see he's wrong and there is a lot of signal in that noise because the author has already filtered it for the reader.

***

I find Yatwer and the White Luck Warrior perspectives so fascinating because they illustrate why gods are so rarely portrayed in fiction unless they're portrayed as human-analogues, experiencing time and thought the same way we do, with narrative thrust and an unshakeable belief in forward moving time.  Forward moving time, where what comes before determines what comes after, is a very hard narrative design to escape from.  And Kellhus and the Dunyain are certainly very trapped within that perconception even as other agencies and entities are not.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2013, 12:21:54 pm »
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire? ... Nothing more.

The issue for me becomes one of "how much does the narrative move?" Is this Bakker's longest book because of sheer amount of content, info-dumping (what with probable POVs in Ishterebinth and from the Consult)? Is it longest book because a lot happens? If TAE is one book, is TUC the second half or the latter third?

The majority of all my current speculation (across threads) really assumes that the Ordeal doesn't make it past Dagliash in TUC. They win or lose there but that TAE capstone of TUC is going to resemble the end of TWP more than TTT.

So if the Ordeal doesn't make it past Dagliash, then I 100% believe Kellhus will go to Momemn and TUC will end with Kellhus having some anti-climatic (hardly) style conversation with Meppa while the Ordeal fights at Dagliash (and probably, we'll get confirmation on exactly how far Kellhus can transpose with one Cant).

Back to Yatwer for a moment...

As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing.  I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements.  The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing.  Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.

I think, Sorweel is Narindar, not the Warrior.

I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?

Mimara wears a Circumfix taken from the battleground of the Battle of the Horde for the latter half of WLW. She thinks of the symbol as false yet suggests that even false symbols afford some kind of protection (whether this is the general fear of God that humans experience with some religious iconography as she takes it off before Galian goes to rape her).

I also think that's a second or third Yatwer notation in Mimara's POV.

One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...

Lol, how is that a fear? Imagine a series, so well written, that you don't figure things out before the conclusion (TSTSNBN) yet spawns this monument to our collective Nerdanels (not to mention, the Hoard at Westeros and ZTS).

Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?

I can't see why he wouldn't return. After all, if he wins and survives, where else would he go? Zeum?

Yeah, I'm definitely talking about before the Ordeal's conclusion. Since Kellhus' only objective (in my mind) is trying his hand at the Tekne, I don't believe he returns from that. I am expecting a Tekne transformation.

(click to show/hide)

On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire.  He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet.  Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire?  Or is he in contact with someone?  And if so, who?
Can't remember if their conversation happened with fire around. I image if he can watch all the great ordeal fires, he could have cast a little spell on those back home.

I don't think there is any explicit limit to the Seeing-Flame, yet. However, I do think when Maithanet died, his final words were not for Esmenet's ears...

I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way? 
I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.

So you two have ruled out Mimara being Yatwerian Holy?

One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...
I'd be very surprised if nothing was cleared up by the end, but equally surprised if everything was explained. There will be plenty of stuff for us to argue about once TUC is released.

Yeah, I do think TAE as a whole is going to mirror the feeling at the end of TWP. Answers that make us question everything ;).

slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire.  Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?

Seems clear that as per the story's analogy, Kellhus is God to Proyas as servant.

Well Serwe prayed a lot and kept getting her prayers answered, so I'd think we would see a similar result and a similar level of significance in the prayers of Serwe and Mimara.

+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.

Forward moving time, where what comes before determines what comes after, is a very hard narrative design to escape from.  And Kellhus and the Dunyain are certainly very trapped within that perconception even as other agencies and entities are not.

Well, it is interesting to note that while many of us experience time as moving forward, we don't all similarly feel that way. We describe time differently based on cultural or social filters, injuries, disease, which all can affect our perception, thus, our description.

Also, since it's my understanding that Bakker has had the ending planned all along - what comes after determines what comes before and that truly, as an author anyways, seems the harder of the two to bend/escape.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:28:13 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2013, 01:13:19 pm »
slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire.  Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?

Hmm, probably compare Khellus to Angrashael (the man).  Both prophets, both married to Esmenet.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:56:45 pm by Curethan »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2013, 01:45:58 pm »
Quote from: WLW, p74
Proyas surprised himself with his lack of hesitation. He came to his knees before the edge of the small iron hearth ... He knew the famed story of the Tusk, where the God Husyelt asked Angeshrael to bow his face into his cooking fire. He knew, verbatim, the Sermon of the Ziggurat, where Kellhus had used this story to reveal his divinity to the First Holy War twenty years previous. He knew that "Bowing into the Fire" had since become a metaphor for Zaudunyani revelation.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2013, 03:47:30 pm »
Quote
Quote from: Wilshire on November 24, 2013, 10:19:33 PM
Quote from: Triskele on November 24, 2013, 05:11:13 PM
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book.  Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi?  And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way? 
I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.

So you two have ruled out Mimara being Yatwerian Holy?

'Yatwerian Holy' is a term I dislike. How about Yatwerian chosen?
Anyway, I wasn't ruling it. I was more suggesting that if Yatwer exists than so too must the other gods. Her prayers, because they are to Yatwer, don't make them special. She could pray to any God and potentialy have her prayers answered.
I do think that those who Yatwer has chosen are special, because she has shown to have both an extreme interest and a lot of power within the sphere of Earwa. Mimara could easily be your Yatwerian Holy, but through little fault of her own. Yatwer chooses who she will, be it one of her high Clerics, or a lowly slave, a blind man in the streets, or a suffering child (Mimara did suffer quite a bit).

Tangent regarding the Judging Eye:
A child who happens to have TJE, which might even be a gift from Yatwer as an indication of her favor, or maybe she was simply born with it. Or, yet another theory, TJE is someone's attempt to spite Yatwer (A rival God, like Gilgaol, or the Inchoroi, or even Kellhus) since TJE blocks birth. Perhaps it kills the children because Yatwer cannot see the woman and is therefore unable to give the gift of life.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2013, 06:17:57 pm »
I totally do not recall Serwe praying and having hear prayers answered...at least not specifically to gods.  Is that what you meant, locke(snow)?

Were there specific examples of her praying to Onkis or someone?

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2013, 06:39:52 pm »
I don't have a direct quote for you, but Serwe definitely spoke of praying in a room filled with idols when she was a girl. This was back in TDTCB or TWP.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2013, 03:02:07 pm »
House Gaunum certainly came to ruin. Girl prayed hard.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2013, 07:29:16 pm »
House Gaunum certainly came to ruin. Girl prayed hard.
At this point in the story, the reader has little reason to believe that his is not a coincidence. Looking back though....
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2013, 11:20:39 pm »
I also think that Serwe prayed for Kellhus to take her away from Cnaiur.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2013, 10:47:15 am »
'Yatwerian Holy' is a term I dislike. How about Yatwerian chosen?
Anyway, I wasn't ruling it. I was more suggesting that if Yatwer exists than so too must the other gods. Her prayers, because they are to Yatwer, don't make them special. She could pray to any God and potentialy have her prayers answered.
I do think that those who Yatwer has chosen are special, because she has shown to have both an extreme interest and a lot of power within the sphere of Earwa. Mimara could easily be your Yatwerian Holy, but through little fault of her own. Yatwer chooses who she will, be it one of her high Clerics, or a lowly slave, a blind man in the streets, or a suffering child (Mimara did suffer quite a bit).

Sorry, thought I should address this... while I remember. Yatwerian Ordained probably best fits what I'm trying to say.

Also, to what I bolded, I couldn't agree more. I've been nerdaneling that Maithanet's existence as Shriah puts a metaphysical stranglehold on the agency of the Gods and She has broken him. I pray in the quiet moments that TUC features some Erikson-level High House Cult awesomeness, featuring among others, First Sword of Gilgaol :)).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 05:10:41 pm »
I really love that Bakker brought Yatwer into the series.  The whole mystery of Yatwer vs Kellhus concerning the No-God has brought an epic tension/mystery into it.  I'm wondering, it's easy to see Kellhus having multiple hidden motives, could the same be said of Yatwer?  Is she playing the role of 'mother of birth' to some higher end?  Is she aiming to usurp the god or something like that?  Enslave the other gods?  It seems to me that whatever she is, she is static, but you know Bakker...