[Francis Buck]

A self moving soul is merely one that has grasped the absolute.  Which means understanding the origin of TDTCB.

Exactly, and I think that's the same as becoming God. Reaching the Absolute is awakening the God, which "sleeps" because it has been split into a million warring splinters (souls). The real world Gnostic-connection comes in here, where Monad (God, the sum of all things, all thoughts, etc.) is another word for Absolute. The two are in interchangable.

In my opinion, the Dunyain's goal is to become God, they just don't realize it. They must dominate everything, come before all circumstance. Just like God. The only way I can see of Awakening the God is by merging all of the souls in the universe together. I assume this is what Kellhus is trying to do. Perhaps it involves the No-God (which does in fact "gather" souls).

[Cüréthañ]

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.  If you become everything, then what is left of you?

Or perhaps you envisage something like the Instumentality Project in Evangelion, which basically equates to obliteration of individuality?
That's something I can get behind as an objective.

If the dunyain need to dominate everything rather than just their own circumstance, why are they cloistered?
To me their objective is quite clearly described as seeking transcendental enlightenment, similar to many eastern spiritual traditions.
There, achieving the absolute means freeing your own soul from the endless repetition of causality.
The dunyain quest seems very similar to that of the Buddha, wherein enlightenment for the individual does not impact on the greater world at all - apart for the progress afforded by their teachings.

Edit: I think allusions to the gnostic tradition would be more aptly attributed to the mandate.  Learned, altruistic mystics giving up their souls for the sake of the world and all that.
 Dunyain seem unconcerned with spiritual matters such as damnation et al.

[mrganondorf]

Hmm, I had never thought of the goal of becoming a self-moving soul as distinct from becoming the God.  That's really interesting.  For my own part, I don't know that Kellhus' goals matter as much as his conditioning.  I'm wondering if one of the big reveals in UC is that he's been conditioned from birth forward to be whatever the dunyain/moe need him to be. 

I can see the pointlessness of total ascension, but I don't know if it matters to K.  I wonder if part of his ultimate utility is the so-called 'madness' that the narrator continues to insist on.  If the Outside really is dominated by greater and lesser desires, and if madness is more or less equal to have desires, then the pragmas may need one of their own to develop a grand desire in order to fulfill their purposes: Kellhus. 

He really wants to save the world or avenge Serwe or bring Serwe back from the grave or whatever--so long as he desires, he can accomplish their aims in the Outside.

EDIT: breaking up the text

[Cüréthañ]

Option D for you sir

[Wilshire]

Sorry Curethan but I just don't agree with that interpretation. The way that obtaining the Absolute has been described, through Kellhus' POV, constantly indicates the importance of dominating circumstances. The existence of the outside demands that it be controlled. An ultimatum is proposed in the books that says that if one does not control circumstance, then you are being controlled. If you are controlled, you do not come before.

I don't have quotes for you but this is why I believe that if a Dunyain achieves their mission, they will become God. There just isn't any differences in being self-moving and controlling everything.

I've heard lots of suggestions that the Dunyain are similar to this or that principle/religion. I think you ought to be careful not to extend such analogies so far that you start ruling out other interpretations because they don't match some kind of "real world" idea.

[Francis Buck]

Sorry Curethan but I just don't agree with that interpretation. The way that obtaining the Absolute has been described, through Kellhus' POV, constantly indicates the importance of dominating circumstances. The existence of the outside demands that it be controlled. An ultimatum is proposed in the books that says that if one does not control circumstance, then you are being controlled. If you are controlled, you do not come before.

I don't have quotes for you but this is why I believe that if a Dunyain achieves their mission, they will become God. There just isn't any differences in being self-moving and controlling everything.

I've heard lots of suggestions that the Dunyain are similar to this or that principle/religion. I think you ought to be careful not to extend such analogies so far that you start ruling out other interpretations because they don't match some kind of "real world" idea.

Pretty much this. The Dunyain's description in TTT glossary even alludes to how they think down on the idea of the "spiritual enlightenment" the Nilnameshi mystics attempt to achieve, knowing that it's foolish to think such a thing can be done in a single lifetime.

[Cüréthañ]

Wilshire, control is only a mechanism to achieve an end.  When a scientist controls the variables in an experiment, he is not trying to control the result.

Absolute, the - Among the Dunyain, the state of becoming "unconditioned", a perfect self-moving soul independent of "what comes before"
...
A severe monastic sect that has repudiated history and animal appetite in the name of finding enlightenment through the control of all desire and all circumstance.

The Epistemlogical Principle asserts that knowing what comes before (via the logos) yields "control" of what comes after.

All souls, they claim, possess conatus, the natural striving to be self-moving, to escape the circle of before and after.
...
The Dunyain believe that , using reason, they can condition themselves to the point of becoming unconditioned, a perfect, self-moving soul.

For me, terms like independent and escape suggest being separated from, rather than the origin of.

Being able to control world-born souls is only ever presented as a 'side-effect' of the abilities they have developed in order to control themselves and to dominate their own circumstances.

*edit: By cloistering themselves in Ishual the dunyain clearly took the option of removing themselves from the world rather than dominating everything.  So there is undeniably more than one way to skin a cat in this 'attaining enlightenment' scenario.

But I digress, the thread is about Kellhus' goals, and he is 'more' than a dunyain. 

[Madness]

For me, terms like independent and escape suggest being separated from, rather than the origin of.

...

*edit: By cloistering themselves in Ishual the dunyain clearly took the option of removing themselves from the world rather than dominating everything.  So there is undeniably more than one way to skin a cat in this 'attaining enlightenment' scenario.

To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?

To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?

[Cüréthañ]

 

To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?

What? Provide an analogy please?
Rising from cellmate to the ruler within a prison doesn't mean you have escaped, but it provides you with a better opportunity to escape.

To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?

Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair.  Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past.

[mrganondorf]

I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?

Lol, that made me think of dunyain traversing the void in a refurbished ark.   

[Wilshire]

Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair.  Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past.

Noted 

You are correct though that this is rather off topic and Kellhus is more. Although you probably said that in jest, I think its a fair point. I doubt that Kellhus is still hyper focused on the Dunyain 'mission' at this point, and judging him based solely through the lense of his would-be peers seems wrong.

[Cüréthañ]

Not jesting at all.  Sticking to the dunyain objective is only one of the options I consider likely (therefore a fair point for debate) but, like you, I really only think there is a low probability of that.

[Cüréthañ]

Lol, that made me think of dunyain traversing the void in a refurbished ark.   

Off topic:
Zooming around in the ark always makes me think of the Tenacious D song 'Dethstar'.
Or is it the other way round?

[Madness]

To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?

What? Provide an analogy please?
Rising from cellmate to the ruler within a prison doesn't mean you have escaped, but it provides you with a better opportunity to escape.

Ah, meaning through metaphor. I don't think I referenced one of your earlier posts enough.

Where do you think the Dunyain can escape to literally in Earwa? They get Outside and make their own pocket of desire?

In Earwa, the only thing I'd qualify as being independent or "escaping" is being the Absolute or the Ground of existence. The argument goes that the Solitary God or God of Gods gives enables reality in the first place.

To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?

Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair.  Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past.

Not like that . I can't remember as eloquently as it has been put but the Dunyain sought to master an imperfect World by discounting sorcery, history, etc, naturally existing pillars (foundational) of reality.

[The Sharmat]

I actually thought the threat to Kellhus would have been chorae wielding skin spies rather than the Mages. None of the Consult seemed to have achieved any acts of great valour in the Second Apocalypse...if Akka can hold off Cleric, Kellhus can kick Quya ass.

It's a question of numbers, Gaston.

Achamian barely lives singing nothing but Wards, one on one. And on ZTS Bakker suggested that there are hundreds of Erratics working with the Consult.

How many can Kellhus really take on... 10?

I'd be more worried about the twins. The Inchoroi mastered biotech so long ago that they eventually forgot how to do it. They piled graft after graft, enhancement after enhancemet, onto themselves for untold millenia. I'd imagine that Aurang and Aurax are extremely powerful Gnostic sorcerors. And their alien minds may be able to do some very weird shit with it. I don't really think we should assume that Kellhus is the greatest living sorceror on Earwa.

Hell, look at what Aurang did to Esmenet. Not merely a compulsion, but a full possession. For a time, she was Aurang. And that was done while Aurang was in a synthese, and very far from his actual body, both of which I get the impression make for serious attenuation of his actual magical power.