Proyas: the next Shriah

  • 60 Replies
  • 26402 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
It's definitely a trifecta of fucked at Momemn, Centurion. I don't think that Esmenet will name a Shriah as the Fanim are at the gates. However, she'll want the Shrial Knights. She'll probably just subsume Shriah too and add to her Totalitarian Matriarchy, for now. After all, Kellhus is God and she is his Vessel (its like matryoshka dolls around here) - also just reiterating fiction here, not sure I believe those last two assertions, just citing the rhetoric she'll use.

Clearly, Fanayal has been co-opted. The Witness of Fane burns at Psatma's touch. I think Meppa just plays a different game altogether.

It's all about spiritual (read metaphysical) power. How can Fanayal have a use for Psatma besides her being a prize concubine? Yet she gains everything by being reunited with the White-Luck Warrior? After all, though Fanayal wishes to bring down the Kellian Empire, its the Cults who ultimately have to gain from Maithanet's death and the demise of Kellhus' reign. Kiunnat beliefs still reflect holding the Tusk as Sacred.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 03:43:28 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Camlost
Kellhus lay dying and Akka kneels by his side

For Akka to scalp him that is. He is after all on the SLOG.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 03:43:36 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
I suppose Esmenet might try to subsume the title of Shriah in the short term, but I was almost positive that the position was strictly patriarchal.  Does anyone know if this is ever explicitly stated?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 03:43:45 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
For Akka to scalp him that is. He is after all on the SLOG.

Imagine how much the Aspect-Emperor's scalp would fetch, or a living god's for that matter. Kind of makes the Coffers seem paltry in comparison.. :)

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 03:43:55 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I feel like that might be the point, Centurion. Esmenet doesn't want to be a tyrant but that is quickly what she's becoming. Also, in the absence of Kellhus - she holds real power. Bakker's going somewhere with his gender arguments. At the first, its been about modernism (Kellhus) leveraging not gender equality, but gender utility... the Kellian Empire exists as a Matriarchy right now?

Esmenet assuming the title of Shriah allows for Bakker to continue problematizing gender...

Just thoughts.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:06 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
Quote from: Someone on the Wikia
“The Cultic priestesses of Yatwer… always [drag] two victims—usually spring lambs—to the sacrificial altar, one to pass under the knife, the other to witness the sacred passage. In this way, every beast thrown upon the altar always [knows], in its dim way, what [is] about to happen. For the Yatwerians, ritual [isn’t] enough: the transformation of casual slaughter into true sacrifice [requires] recognition.”

Feels like this little info-seed will become manifest in TUC on a much larger scale.  The themes of fertility and sacrifice are getting thick as we head into the endgame.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:13 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
@Madness:

That is certainly a possibility.

Bakker's symbolism and sociocultural commentaries aside, it will be interesting to see how Esmenet ultimately weighs the pros and cons of naming a successor to Maithanet with all the pitfalls which that decision will inherently hold, and the possibility of assuming the title of Shriah herself which will almost certainly broaden the rebels base of support.  Her primary goal seems to be the preservation of the Empire as a means of protecting herself and her children.  Just thinking out loud here...

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:28 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Honestly, Momemn is kind of a shit show.

Random thoughts:

Firstly, Fanayal has to be a pawn. All that he's accomplishing, he's doing for the Kiunnat Cults, because Fanimry certainly isn't going to reap the spoils of bringing down Esmenet.

Second, Meppa knows this. When Psatma tells Meppa that Fanayal is annoited but not by who Meppa thinks, he doesn't contradict her... he just doesn't respond?

Third, Meppa is a wildcard. Psatma is the Titular Leader of the Cultic Revolt, she's happy to see Fanayal travel to Momemn, because ultimately she wants to bring down the Kellian Empire. So Meppa must have ulterior goals, aside helping Fanayal. Fanayal's bottom rung. He's doing all the work yet he's the surest to reap no reward.

Four, will the Cults within the city seek to help the Fanim or oppose them? The White-Luck's perspective refers to enemy drums - so he will fight them? Will the Cults seek to free Psatma, oppose the Fanim, then take down Momemn?

Finally, what will the Avatars do when the No-God rises? All conflict among humankind will cease instantly but the Avatars won't recognize this - in fact, they'll wonder why everyone stops fighting and looks north suddenly as one...

+1 for Thoughts, Centurion.

Willem, that is a passage from the Warrior-Prophet, I believe, when Achamian is ruminating about giving Kellhus up to the Mandate.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:39 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Firstly, Fanayal has to be a pawn. All that he's accomplishing, he's doing for the Kiunnat Cults, because Fanimry certainly isn't going to reap the spoils of bringing down Esmenet.

My thoughts exactly. No one in charge in Earwa ever accomplishes anything and gets rewarded unless they are Dunyain, and even then they still get stabbed.

Quote from: Madness
The White-Luck's perspective refers to enemy drums - so he will fight them? Will the Cults seek to free Psatma, oppose the Fanim, then take down Momemn?


Enemy drums is a nice catch. Hopefully the cults will not recognize the Fanim army as some kind of savior and will oppose them. It would be a let down if they just walked all over Momemn. I'd hope at least that they keep Meppa in the back for a while and waste some time throwing themselves at the walls and such.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I figure Meppa uses Fanayal just as everyone else does - to his own ends. But I figure Fanayal will try to unleash him straightaway against the Momemn's walls and I figure Meppa will obey up until that point when he does not.

Also, I'm think Ajokli and Kellhus are both making plays through Kelmomas - I starting to think that Samarmas can't be the Voice but is, in fact, as joint souls, representative of something other.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 03:44:57 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: WLW
"The God punishes us according to the degree we resemble him."
Inrilatas towered before him.
"And you resemble him, little brother.  You resemble ..."
... Ajokli?...
Quote from: WLW
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye.  Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug - laughed together!  Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shreiked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless ...

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 03:45:10 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1. The first I think actually references your thoughts about grasping the Absolute and the God/mud at the bottom. Inrilatas has seen more.

Second one's all Ajokli.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 03:45:49 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Those quotes are only seperated by a paragraph talking about Kel's love for Mommy being a shroud for something else.

That part of the conversation seems all about the 'divine' agency possessed by Kellhus' hyper-emotional kids.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 03:45:57 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Interesting...

I'd always read that as Inrilatas talking about grasping the God of Gods and Kelmomas internalizing that within his own worldview.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 03:46:05 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I think their convo should be veiwed as two dunyain going at it.   They aren't just chatting...

Kelmomas wants Inrilatas to kill Maitha, something he suspects his brother already wants to do.
He moves the conversation towards Inrilatas' motivations - why doesn't he pretend so that he can be free of his imprisonment?
Inrilatus wants to know Kelmomas' motivating passions too - what voice speaks to him.  But that is probably only so he can condition Kelmomas into his grasp...  "Let me look inside your mouth."

The difference between them and Kellhus is control. 
As Kellhus says to Proyas - "You wonder what passions move me."

Weird (and probably thematicaly significant) how Maitha is surprised by Inrilatas' 'soft' bones.