Daimos, Dagliash, & Kellhus

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« on: May 28, 2013, 03:56:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
From Saccarees & the Dunyain thread, some emerging ideas - things that have definitely been discussed elsewhere:

Will we see more of the Daimos and, based on it's mixed success against the Psukhe, how might it hold up to the Gnosis?

Is it plausible that Kellhus has convinced Iyokus and the Scarlet Spies to use the Daimos en masse at Dagliash?

Has Kellhus elaborated on the Daimos... Metadaimos?!

Did Kellhus truly travel to the Outside or simply summon two Ciphrang and fight them because he spars like a G? If he travelled beyond the World, did he do this physically or spiritually? Personal portal or conscious state?

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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 03:56:46 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I think it's interesting to ponder (and I don't really have any answers here) whether or not Kellhus was being honest w/ the Nonman emissary. 

We do not know for certain if Kellhus has traveled to the Outside, but it seems possible.  And I note that the suspicion on the part of the Nonman seemed legit, so they didn't think it to be absurd that Kellhus might have pulled it off.  I suspect that the Nonmen know their stuff, so to me, that lends credence to the possibility that Kellhus indeed could have done it. 

So he tells the emissary that he saw the God shattered into a million pieces (don't have exact quote handy).  Can we think of any reasons why Kellhus might have a motive to tell the Nonman this?  Is it true or false?  I suspect that Kellhus at this point genuinely wants the Nonmen to join him, so I am open to the possibility that he might lie if necessary. 

On the Daimos, did it not seem that when you fight a Ciphrang in Earwa you don't exactly get the chance to chop off their head?  It's more like if you inflict enough HP damage they get sent back to the Outside.  That's just my speculation based on the text, but maybe it's actually easier to claim their skull if you do indeed walk the Outside and kill them there as it's a more true kill, so to speak.

Man, if there is a massive fight at Dagliash with Nonmen on both sides, Ciphrang, etc...that would be great.

The only thing missing would be Cishaurim.

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 03:57:29 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I'm jonesing all about Gnosis on Gnosis... aside from the climax at Sauglish there is literally none in the entire series :O?!

Now that I think of it, Trisk, on the Daimos vs. Gnosis/Psukhe, Achamian seems to be able to tackle one Ciphrang at a time while the three Ciphrang take on multiple Cishaurim until the stronger ones come and then they flee - none flee Achamian.

Also, if Achamian was good enough with a sword, perhaps, it'd have been simple for him to decapitate... the Decapitants.

I too view the conversation about the Outside between Kellhus and Nin'sariccas as one aspect of truth among a pack of lies. I mean, Nin'sariccas doesn't represent Nil'giccas, evidence suggests that Kellhus probably knows this, yet they enter into an agreement where Kellhus yields his firstborn daughter, possibly directly to ranking members of the Consult. At the very least, she's more valuable than most humans simply as a sorceress...

Problem is they give us like the teaser, of the trailer, of what the movie of the conversation would have been. They echo the whispers from Cleric's Sermons, the False Sun, and Meppa while Nin'sariccas seems to physically verify that the soul of Anasurimbor Kellhus is in his body.

Hmm... Dagliash :twisted: . Makes me drool for mind candy.

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 03:57:37 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I forget if they flee the Cishaurim because they're getting beaten on their own or if it's at the instruction of Iyokus.  Do all three of them survive the Cish, or did one of them get taken out first?

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 03:57:45 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I was under the impression that they were, for whatever reason, recalled by iyokus, rather than them running.

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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 03:57:57 pm »
Quote from: Madness
A little a and a little b. Then c. He tells them to flee and they are overmatched before they even turn to run.

"'Demon!' A voice like a thunderclap.

They turned from the blood-soaked marble, saw an old, eyeless man approach from the deeper temple. Something flashed from his forehead, like a stolen star. Others spilled between the flanking columns. More blind men.

Flee, the Voice whispered in his soul.

Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt...

Flee!

Then Sohorat, his slavering form caught in torrents of light, screamed.

Zioz leapt into the clouds.

Return me, manling! Throw off these chains!

But the Scarlet Schoolman was obstinate.

One last task... One more offending eye..." (TTT, p407)

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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:19 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
Quote from: Madness
Has Kellhus elaborated on the Daimos... Metadaimos?!

If I had my books on hand, and some time to rifle through them, I might argue that the meta-effect on the Daimos would allow Kellhus to travel to the Outside, rather than from the Outside as seems to be the case in all our other examples of boundary crossing (topos and demon summoning).

While the Decapitants are an ominous symbol of Kellhus' power, I think there could be more to it than that; I mean, it's rather easy for him to impress men, but to impress Nonmen is something else altogether I would imagine. I like to pretend that Kellhus has usurped some position of power by displacing the Decapitants rather than them being just ornamental.

Also, I find it interesting, if my memory serves me right, that the Decapitants do not appear entirely inanimate (I seem to recall a description of one working its jaw whilst hanging from his belt, could be wrong). Any thoughts on that?

And lastly, who's to say that the Consult or Nonmen are not capable of wielding the Daimos? At one time there existed practitioners of the Aporos among the Nonmen, and that's some heavy shit..

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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:26 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
So, Madness, it looks like a chorae caused most of the worry as they took out 1 right away. Surprise and a full cadre of Cish focused on the other lesser demon made that an easy fight. And the third figured running was a good idea, what with the crazy numerical disadvantage and the chorae

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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 on a couple thoughts, Camlost:

- The to and from distinction is pretty key. Also, perhaps summoning more powerful demons or pulling Gods/Realms into the World? If he went to the Outside, do you think its like Gemmell, a la conscious states, spirit journeys experienced like "dreaming" or full on Kellhus the man in physical body?

- The Decapitants did indeed seem to impress the Nonman Emissary and preempted the conversation about the Outside. Good call.

I'd thought that there must remain some personal experience of reality to Earwa - minds play tricks with ambiguity and fear... or Ciphrang never die :D?

On that note, some thoughts to address Camlost's post and Wilshire's:

I've always liked the simplicity of the concept of Iyokus' Gift.

It was initially articulated by Trisk, I'm pretty sure, a couple years ago on Westeros. Iyokus is doomed to damnation at the hands of the Ciphrang he pulls into the World. He uses one against Achamian at Iothiah and three against the Cishaurim at Shimeh.

Now I don't think Iyokus had many doubts about using the Daimos. But if Kellhus had to sway the Necromancer, ultimately, the way to do it would be to free Iyokus from his existential bondage.

I don't believe that this is what Kellhus would inevitably want with the Daimos but he could easily do it to disable the two Achamian kills.

That's also a real interesting aspect of this assertion because it depends on some special case info to do with Chorae and the Psukhe...

The Ciphrang on Kellhus' hip can't torture Iyokus for eternity - those would be the ones Achamian kills. The one that is hit with a Chorae in Shimeh salts. The other dies by the Psukhe. So only those that are killed by the Psukhe or Chorae actually experience dissolution?

@ Wilshire, you're right on, Iyokus would want to maximize the use of that which keepeth him forever and so tells the Ciphrang to flee. Also, before that quote the three of them kill dozens of Cishaurim.

However, Achamian probably couldn't take two of them. A Ciphrang probably couldn't take two Gnostic sorcerers.

DAGLIASH!!! That's it, going to reread Helm's Deep.

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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:46 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Only the chorae and the Psukhe cause dissolution is a powerful distinction I think.

The one true god perhaps.

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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:56 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
I'd thought that there must remain some personal experience of reality to Earwa - minds play tricks with ambiguity and fear... or Ciphrang never die :D?

It seems I missed putting this in my initial post, it's kind of an extrapolation on the possibilities of the meta-Daimos and runs off one of the comments Trisk made: supposing that Kellhus did come to grasp a way of traveling to and from the Outside, I doubt he would be careless enough to leave those "portals" open (assuming that is, that it's not a case of astral projection or something like that). I guess I'm suggesting that before attempting anything so risky Kellhus would have had a way of controlling the situation, of sealing Earwa from the Outside (I know that gets into some complicated parallels with the Consult, but I'm going to ignore that for the time being). Applying that idea to the Decapitants, I wonder if perhaps Kellhus sealed the Ciphrang's return to the Outside, and thus the partially animate heads?

Now that I think about it this idea kind of undermines my previous one about him usurping a position among the Ciphrang. Unless of course, (now I'm just running on tangents) Kellhus decapitates the demons in the Outside and brings their heads to Earwa, sealing his portal, the demons from their bodies, and establishing the size of his stones for any race that would look upon him... crackpot theories are too fun

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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 03:59:06 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
or the decapitants are like the lock to the coffers, Kellhus bound some human souls to them to animate them and freak people out thinking that he had bound demons.

In other words, it's an illusion.

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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 03:59:16 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
The wathi doll was described as having a kind of a face, might have a weird effect if a face came through a face.

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 03:59:23 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Nice riposte, lockesnow. Practicality tickles me.

Camlost, I'm definitely under the impression that benjuka is being played in the Outside. There's my outlandish Nerdanel about Moenghus the Elder using the deaths of the Cishaurim to create a power base in the Outside at the time of his personal ascension... Kellhus is clearly playing at the next level.

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 04:00:01 pm »
Quote from: Anasurimbor Bob
Well to me what kellhus discovered in the outside is how to create his own "Ground" like the greater Ciphangs do there as well as possibly send,against his/her will people from Earwa there thus"destituting"(The use of that word being made on purpose and hinting about another form of sorcery long thought lost :mrgreen: )them.