[What Came Before]

Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).

[What Came Before]

Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).

That's an interesting catch. 

If you go to Nautzera's entry in the TTT appendix, he is only referred to as a senior member of the Quorum.

[What Came Before]

Achamian comments on the Quorum as being a layer of organization against tyranny within the Mandate.

[What Came Before]

Here's something else unique about Saccarees: he is, as far as we know, the very first Grandmaster of the Mandate. In PoN they were ruled by a council (the Quorum).

Much easier for Kellhus to control if they have a Grandmaster.

And easy to have the person you want to be a grandmaster by handing off a meta-gnosis spell.

[What Came Before]

I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.

Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.

I find the whole incident a bit odd.

[What Came Before]

I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.

Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.

I find the whole incident a bit odd.

Really? To me it look like Carindusu was a bitter old hag who was jealous of the Mandate (as all the anagogic schools are). He was always looking to discredit Saccarees whenever he could. Saccarees seem to put up with him pretty well, and I think the last line, before Carindusu goes mad, when Saccarees says something along the lines of 'let me show you your prize' was actually just a generous gesture. A attempt to boost his moral, remind him why he was here fighting, during a battle that was all but lost at that point.

[What Came Before]

Welcome to the thunderdome, SE.

My interpretation was that Carindusu is something of a Conphas. Those scenes highlight that Carindusu is a constantly trying to emphasize his own superiority. Saccarees, for the most part, simply plays the reactions deftly.

+1, Wilshire.

[What Came Before]

I think the biggest question here is why did Saccarees shame Carindusu during the council meetings? It seems to me that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned all along.

Even during the battle, Saccarees taunts Carindusu.

I find the whole incident a bit odd.

It's an interesting idea that I wouldn't discount. 

However, I think it's possible that it just occurred naturally as it seemed that Carindusu was presented from the beginning as one who was mad w/ jealousy of the Gnosis.  So he may have set himself up for his shamings in the way he challenged Saccarees.

Then there's the whole rumored theft of the Gnosis by Carindusu.  We don't really get confirmation on that do we?

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Oh hi guys lol.

Nah, Trisk, we never do... I think it would have been fairly obvious to the Mandate if they did... wouldn't they instantly recognize the use of the Gnosis by the Vokalati?

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lol 3 posts in as many minutes from as many people.

yeah even the bruise left behind by the gnosis is different. There is a point when the skin eaters cross the path of one of the battles and Akka mentions something like the gnosis being distinguishable from the anagogic, like a sword cutting the ground compared to a bludgeon.

[What Came Before]

lol 3 posts in as many minutes from as many people.

yeah even the bruise left behind by the gnosis is different. There is a point when the skin eaters cross the path of one of the battles and Akka mentions something like the gnosis being distinguishable from the anagogic, like a sword cutting the ground compared to a bludgeon.

Wilshire, in your account of Bakker's reading from TUC last week, you mentioned that Serwa found a ruin with a faint mark of a kind she didn't recognize. Wonder if that represents a third kind of sorcery -- perhaps Aporic?

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:twisted: Yes, Armitage!

Maybe we're becoming a forum, Wilshire... or maybe Westeros is still down lol.

[What Came Before]

Maybe we're becoming a forum, Wilshire...

:shock:

Wilshire, in your account of Bakker's reading from TUC last week, you mentioned that Serwa found a ruin with a faint mark of a kind she didn't recognize. Wonder if that represents a third kind of sorcery -- perhaps Aporic?

A third type of sorcery is probable as each type, as far as we know, has its own kind of bruise, though Aporic I'm skeptical. They mentioned that the ruins were exceedingly old, so old it was likely the Nonmen may not have known of its existence or that they have long since forgotten it (though now I realize that knowing exactly what she said would have been rather important, since the Nonmen forget most things anyway.). The mark is mentioned almost entierly in passings, perhaps not even a dozen words. A passing fancy, nothing more. This probably means its important or some kind of foreshadowing.

"I will call this place 'Nameless', in reverence to your ignorance" -Moenghus to Serwa about the ruins (as close to a direct quote of my memory would offer)

Though I do not recall the origins of the Aporic school. Do we  know about when it was developed?
If it is old enough, there is a chance. Time here is the main variable to consider. It has been hinted that the Consult have new tricks, maybe they have found an entirely forgotten branch of magic.

[What Came Before]

Though I do not recall the origins of the Aporic school. Do we  know about when it was developed?
If it is old enough, there is a chance. Time here is the main variable to consider. It has been hinted that the Consult have new tricks, maybe they have found an entirely forgotten branch of magic.

The Aporetics went over to the Inchoroi around the time of the Womb-Plague, just as the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars were breaking out. So the Aporos is somewhat older than that -- but I didn't find any reference to its creation in the books. Of course, we don't know when Gnostic sorcery was developed either, do we?

[What Came Before]

However, I think it's possible that it just occurred naturally as it seemed that Carindusu was presented from the beginning as one who was mad w/ jealousy of the Gnosis.  So he may have set himself up for his shamings in the way he challenged Saccarees.

The whole battle was suspicious. The river crossing was an obvious moment of crisis. Consult involvement was likely and should have been expected. Why wasn't it? Did AK simply not care? Was there something more important? Or was it a planned sacrifice? A rerun of the Vulgar Holy War? It seems excessive if all you want to do is justify a bit of near cannibalism.