[What Came Before]

My crackpot theory is that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned by AK all along.

Carindusu could possibly have been/will be turned to the side of the Consult. He is obviously mad with jealousy and resentment. AK could have read his face and seen the possibility of betrayal in him.
I mean, imagine if Aurang pops in and offered Carindusu the Gnosis, salvation and other forbidden goodies in return for betraying the Ordeal.

Perhaps baiting Carindusu to attack the Mandate was the only way to make it happen without people asking too many questions.

I agree with generic, something if definitely off with the whole battle.

[What Came Before]

My crackpot theory is that the destruction of the Vokalati was planned by AK all along.

Perhaps baiting Carindusu to attack the Mandate was the only way to make it happen without people asking too many questions.

I like that thought, but that still begs the question of why AK couldn't posses him. Was he like Conphas? Too self centred to be controlled? And if it is only a matter of one person I'm sure it would have been possible to arrange an accident that wouldn't include the loss of dozens of Schoolmen.

Assuming the Ordeal is real I can think of one thing that could justify the expense. AK intends to bring the old Schools into the fold of the Mandate and release the Gnosis. Both the Saik and the Scarlet Spires were broken in TTT. The Sisterhood is his creation. The mercenary School is lead by someone described as more of a priest. That leaves only one School that risks developing delusions of grandeur. And now it is gone. The remnants can be recycled.
Loose halve a School and a quarter of your army and get an army of Gnostics that follows your orders.

[What Came Before]

Loose halve a School and a quarter of your army and get an army of Gnostics that follows your orders.

Seems like a pretty safe gambit to me. A couple of Pawns for a Queen? Sure.

[What Came Before]

regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.

Literally underground.

without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?

Ugh.  Need new book now!

[What Came Before]

regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.

Literally underground.

without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?

Ugh.  Need new book now!

I love this idea.

I'm not convinced said personage is dead; even if he is, I think that what was revealed about him and his Mark will turn out to be awfully important.

[What Came Before]

regarding a suspicious new mark, remember that we have one in text (atrocity tales, the false sun)description of a 'mark' that is unlike any other mark--ahem and the person in question was last 'seen' disappearing underground.

Literally underground.

without knowing about this mysterious accounting of a chapter (I presume it's in the chapter one spoilers thread and I haven't caught up to that thread yet this AM) I'm going to guess these ruins might be underground, or lead underground?

Ugh.  Need new book now!

dont worry you arnt behind. It is from my discussion in the Post Laurier topic. The scene takes place in an open field on the other side of the of the Demua Mountains (somewhere between ishterebinth and the mountains). The chapter except was from chapter 3.

[What Came Before]

It's hardly surprising that the Grandmaster of the Mandate has good social and political skills as well as being skilled at magic.  Those are pretty much a requirement of the job.  There's a long list of characters that are quite competent without being Dunyain.

[What Came Before]

It's hardly surprising that the Grandmaster of the Mandate has good social and political skills as well as being skilled at magic.  Those are pretty much a requirement of the job.  There's a long list of characters that are quite competent without being Dunyain.

Also, I don't think it's un-Dunyain-like to brood about supposed fratricide...not if that is what circumstance requires...it would be most Dunyain-like.

[What Came Before]

Here, here, CC.

Lol, Trisk. There's lots of good reasons Saccarees could be Dunyain too .

I really do think that Kellhus is unconcerned with the loss of the Mandate - these topics might warrant new threads.

To break that down quick.

I do think that the Mandate and the Vokalati basically destroyed themselves. Obviously, this contention is up to debate until TUC. However, for thoughts, anyone who completes the ritual with Seswatha's Heart is going to be at least on average as good a sorcerer as Seswatha.

This suggests that Swayali or Mandati are interchangeable digits in the algebra of war.

More importantly, I think that Kellhus is unconcerned because he has convinced Iyokus and the Scarlet Spires to utilize the Daimos in concert when necessary for combat... say, Dagliash .

[What Came Before]

Heh - That would be pretty awesome to see the Consult whose very purpose is to avoid damnation get a nice dose of the Daimos for a foreshadowing. 

That is another wild thing to think about...Kellhus has undoubtedly taken the Gnosis to a level previously unseen.  Why couldn't he do that w/ the Daimos too?  Iyokus shows him the basics and then he improves on it.

[What Came Before]

Weren't you behind "Iyokus' Gift," Trisk? The idea that Kellhus kills the remaining two Ciphrang Iyokus enslaved in the PON, thus effectively freeing the Necromancer from damnation?

Lol, though imagine... eh? Kellhus apparently uses it to open a personal fucking portal to the Outside for himself? Metadaimos!!!

[What Came Before]

Weren't you behind "Iyokus' Gift," Trisk? The idea that Kellhus kills the remaining two Ciphrang Iyokus enslaved in the PON, thus effectively freeing the Necromancer from damnation?

Lol, though imagine... eh? Kellhus apparently uses it to open a personal fucking portal to the Outside for himself? Metadaimos!!!

I think that I may have been...just an idea, but we do know that Kellhus carries the two demon heads, and we are told that Kellhus worked w/ Iyokus on going to the Outside. 

Although this opens up some other wild possibilities...let's assume the moment that Kellhus has literally gone into the Outside and slain demons...the types of Ciphrang that one might summon w/ the Daimos. 

If that is the case...can Kellhus slay other things in the Outside?  Can he kill The Hundred?

If there actually is a transcendent Solitary God as the Fanim believe, I wonder if that would be the one entity beyond the reach of Kellhus.

[What Came Before]

I'm going to end up having creating a couple new threads over the next day or two. But for now:

Some relevancies:

"The Decapitants, as the demonic heads had come to be called ... Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unificiation Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare to ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer... (WLW, p565).

"'What did you see?' Nin'sariccas asked with what seemed genuine curiousity. 'What did you find?'

'God... broken into a million warring splinters.'

A grim nod. 'We worship the spaces between the Gods'" (p567).

These come from the meeting between the Nonman Emissary Nin'sariccas and Kellhus - some interesting stuff is suggested about "substitutions" (p566) throughout the conversation.

It seems he, Kellhus himself, went bodily - or spiritually - to the Outside.

[What Came Before]

Wheels within wheels. It may have been truth that he went to the outside in some aspect, body/spirit/whatever. This does not discount, however, the fact that he may have simply killed a couple summoned Ciphrang. After all, stories are always better with visual aids, and proofs more easily swallowed when they can be seen.

[Somnambulist]

I can't recall.  Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?

I do not believe so, but there is a passage in WLW where he pulls a very Dunyain social move on the grandmaster of the Vokalati.  Could be a strong hint.  Could be a herring.

I know this is an old thread, but have been doing a re-read.  On TJE right now and remembered this topic when I came across a passage:

"Several Schoolmen sat at the table below them: an old bearded man wearing robes similar to Eskeles, only trimmed in gold; a Nilnameshi with ringed nostrils and tattooed cheeks; ..."

(My bolding above) The scene is where Sorweel and Eskeles attend Kellhus' audience in the Umbilicus, where he's floating around scrutinizing everyone.  The passage describes all the Grandmasters of the Schools, so logically this must be Saccarees.  Not much of a description, but there you go.