[Madness]

Lol or her .

But +1, SOA.

I love the nerdanels that once you get into Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls, the Dunyain are in a Battle Royale Cannibal Deathmatch. Also, the one that started this thread in my mind, that the Dunyain have previously conditioned Ishterebinth.

Sorry, Bakker's misogyny seems to have rubbed on me :p. Seriously though, in the long run i doubt the Dunyain would bother with anything outside their interest and the only thing they might want from the NonMen is genetic material (which they probably already have through the Anasurimbor line).

Lol - nah, in my nerdanel, all the Dunyain care about is dominating the world. They just did Ishterebinth first?

But your point stands regardless... the Dunyain as a community can only dominate each other; though it's interested to imagine again the hierarchy of the Dunyain. Would the teachers also be the Council of Elders? Is there simply one Dunyain Dictator? Or my personal favorite, they're still opening letters from Dunyain Nostradamus.

Speaking of Dunyain women. I thought this comment from Bakker was very interesting,

I'm afraid the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine' doesn't come to the fore until The Aspect-Emperor...

I've seen speculation that he was referring to Kellhus's children here, but I disagree, I think there is a reveal coming concerning Dunyain women now that Achamian and Mimara are in Ishual.

I hope so very much too, Nskoghar... So much Dune to riff off of with Dunyain women.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Yes but maybe it's a trap . For example Mepa is so similar to Muad'Dib that i am certain Scott is once again trolling us...

[Madness]

+1 SOA. We have a thread .

[mrganondorf]

@ Nskoghar - I have no evidence, but just a growing feeling that Kellhus was deceived about the true nature of the Dunyain.  They conditioned him for a specific task while hiding many secrets.  Who knows?  TUC will tell us!

@ SkiesOfAzel - I don't think that the Dunyain would have any problem with one tyrant soul.  Their whole mission (apparently) has been to breed/train/experiment to one day produce the God--abnegation of self-interest seems like a corner stone of their way.  Or did I read you wrong?  I agree with Curethan that becoming God just seems pointless to me, the point where totality and nullity are indistinguishable.

[SkiesOfAzel]

@ Nskoghar - I have no evidence, but just a growing feeling that Kellhus was deceived about the true nature of the Dunyain.  They conditioned him for a specific task while hiding many secrets.  Who knows?  TUC will tell us!

@ SkiesOfAzel - I don't think that the Dunyain would have any problem with one tyrant soul.  Their whole mission (apparently) has been to breed/train/experiment to one day produce the God--abnegation of self-interest seems like a corner stone of their way.  Or did I read you wrong?  I agree with Curethan that becoming God just seems pointless to me, the point where totality and nullity are indistinguishable.

You didn't read me wrong, that's their plan in theory, but since the will to dominate actually requires self interest, this would lead to allot of chaos till we got our McCloud. And i agree, the result would lead to a being with no purpose, not to mention that without a watcher he might as well cease to exist all together, or even turn into a cat  .

[mrganondorf]

I figured the motivation would be something like the apprehension that "I am the one" independent of self-interest.  Which is strange, got to wonder if there are warring Dunyain thinkers: those who argue that they are indeed progressing towards the self-moving soul and those who argue that it is an infinite goal and there task is to ever stretch toward it.

How would a Dunyain know that they are the last in line?  Bakker's gonna have some fun with the hubris.  I bet Kellhus bites the dust, then old Moe, and then whoever is in the deeper shadows.

Strange: if the metaphysics of Earwa would let the Dunyain breed toward an objectively higher person, then the moment that they produce offspring of the same or lower quality, they could know they've reached the top.  So Kellhus' degenerations in ability would be a sign to the Pragma that Moe was the one.

[Wilshire]

I agree that there can only be on Absolute Soul, either in the physical world or in the metaphysical Outside. Maybe, just maybe, there would be room for a few selected 'equal' individuals to be "absolute" self moving souls, but really outside of that there is room for no one else. I don't know if the Dunyain have considered this endgame . Like a dog chasing his tail, they won't know what to do once they catch it, and might discover the outcome of their goal rather unpleasant.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I think they do know, they just don't care. Their motivation was fear of the unknown in the first place and you can only fight the unknown by make the world static and finite since you can't really make yourself infinite. Simple (and very human) narcisism, their whole existence is an irony.

[Wilshire]

I think they do know, they just don't care. Their motivation was fear of the unknown in the first place and you can only fight the unknown by make the world static and finite since you can't really make yourself infinite. Simple (and very human) narcisism, their whole existence is an irony.

I like this explanation very much.

[mrganondorf]

Wondering if one of Bakker's long term plans for impressing the reader with Dunyain intelligence is to give us a measure by how much more awesome the nonmen are.  30,000 years of studying the gnosis might crumple Kellhus at the gates of Min-Uroikas.

[locke]

Wondering if one of Bakker's long term plans for impressing the reader with Dunyain intelligence is to give us a measure by how much more awesome the nonmen are.  30,000 years of studying the gnosis might crumple Kellhus at the gates of Min-Uroikas.

nah, if knowledge and experience were cumulative ad infinitum there would be no erratics.  Nonmen don't spend 30,000 years in study, they spend 30,000 years with their head pressed against a wall trying not to think. Their brains and souls are not honed tools the way Dunyain do it, so they wouldn't spend 30,000 years sharpening a mind or soul on a whetstone of study.  Additionally, to extend the metaphor, sharpen a blade enough and eventually your blade is gone, sort of like going erratic.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I think that the Nonmen are too anthropomorphic for it to be a coincidence. They embraced philosophy sooner, so their society evolved faster than that of the humans. This kind of reminds me of the ancient Greeks. They also had a saying : "Πας μη έλλην βάρβαρος", which means every non Greek is a barbarian. Kind of how the Non Men see humanity.

There is also the fact that even if it's rare, it is possible to interbreed with humans, so their genetics must be extremely similar, implying a common origin. Add this to the fact that we know only about five tribes of Men, and the only other groups we know that could push that number to seven are the Nonmen and the Inchoroi and you can reach some pretty crazy conclusions.

[EDIT]

About the Nonmen magic points, the Gnosis is a tool that hasn't evolved for thousands of years. They are awesome with the Gnosis not because they have honed their minds with logic, but because as philosophers they have a natural affinity for the abstract. It's easier for them to recall their soul's past even if their brain can't store their own memories. Kellhus is a special case, since he has embraced both science and the abstract. He is conceptually (and probably even genetically) a hybrid.

[Madness]

About the Nonmen magic points, the Gnosis is a tool that hasn't evolved for thousands of years. They are awesome with the Gnosis not because they have honed their minds with logic, but because as philosophers they have a natural affinity for the abstract. It's easier for them to recall their soul's past even if their brain can't store their own memories. Kellhus is a special case, since he has embraced both science and the abstract. He is conceptually (and probably even genetically) a hybrid.

For ambiguity, this isn't how I read Bakker's "sorcery is a reflex" notation from Achamian's perspective. I figured it more in the sense that they've breed Quya along so many generations that a Quyan Nonchild could probably unleashed Gnosis like we have knee-jerk or startle reflexes built into us at this point in our evolutionary arc. Sorcery is simply something a Quya does at this point in their evolution. They "learn sorcery" to hone their innate expression?

[Aural]

I hope so very much too, Nskoghar... So much Dune to riff off of with Dunyain women.

Just realized that this is probably another PC trope that Bakker was subverting by making the Dûnyain women nothing more than broodmares.

[Madness]

At this point it could go either way. Which is interesting because that is one of the main issues in interpreting Plato's Republic because it allows for both gender equality or gender subordination...

And then based on Dune:

(click to show/hide)

Bakker could riff off any of the Bene Gesserit, Honoured Matres, or axolotl tanks (broodmare scenario). Personally, I'm hoping for the Dunyain/Bene Gesserit/Philosopher-Queen scenario.[/quote]