The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: SilentRoamer on November 27, 2014, 08:43:57 pm
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Ok so we know that the Aporos is a sort of anti magic, regardless of the thematurgical implications. Do we think Kellhus has any knowledge and understanding of Aporetic sorcery? Could he manufacture a chorae (given the right materials) do we think he might know how? Could he work it out through inferred facts?
There might be Nonmen alive with knowledge of the Aporos.
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I think that given the effects of chorae on a schoolman, I'm going to conlcude that no schoolman that has used any major cants/wards could actually practice the Aporos without salting.
That said, he might have had time to discover the lost art, extrapolate, and instruct some Few, like the college of Luthymae, how to use it.
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Ah so here is a crux. Do we assume the creators of the Aporos were not sorcerous? By its nature the creation of the Aporos circumvents its sorcerous creation?
Maybe the Chorae are themauturgical in nature? We know very little about the Aporos and the manufacture of the Chorae.
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I have speculated before, maybe on the Sorcery topic, but I'm not going to go back and look for it.
I think the Aporos would have been theorized by your typical Quya, or perhaps a Nonman philosopher. However, due to the Aporos being anathema to Sorcery, I think its practitioners would necessarily have to be of the Few, but unmarred by the use of magic.
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I think that given the effects of chorae on a schoolman, I'm going to conlcude that no schoolman that has used any major cants/wards could actually practice the Aporos without salting.
That said, he might have had time to discover the lost art, extrapolate, and instruct some Few, like the college of Luthymae, how to use it.
perhaps an Aporetic sorcerer could utter 1 nuclear cant before salting? kind of sorcerous suicide bomber?
i love the idea of Luthymae hiding aporetic secrets!
that we have only ever seen aporetic sorcery in tiny spheres is strange, you'd think someone somewhere would prefer a tiny cube or ring or have a whole sword or shield made of the stuff
about Kellhus learning the Aporos, idk. he seemed to require expert instruction to learn the Gnosis and the Daimos, it could be that the Aporos, whatever it is, is so technical that even a Dunyain can't backwards engineer it (within 20 years, while conquering/ruling the world, making babies, and preparing for the coming of Mog, looting nonman mansions, experiementing with the limits of the Gnosis, interrogating skin spies, brushing his teeth, probability trancing, the occasional poop and peepee)
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I think once Kell had the Gnosis, if could have figured out the Aporetic cants, maybe even including the Daimos. They are all logically connected I would think. However, the Aporos might be on a whole different playing field, and he would need, at the very least, some texts describing the basics. He needs something to extrapolate from, and I'm not sure the Gnosis holds that key. The Nonmen had banned its use and research long before the Tutelage, so he'd have to find some Nonman to teach him.
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Wilshire, it seems we have a defining quote: "The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be if the proper conceptual leaps were made" - which states an evolutionary link between two magical paradigms. All we need to consider is a factor of a nonmen participation, a true reason of that short "if".
Maybe, nonmen tutelage was just a time-saver which gave halaroi a new branch of sorcery a few thousand years earlier. Maybe, nonman's cognition is truly alien and acts as an essential ingredient, so halaroi by itself are limited to the forms of anagogic sorcery and, if they are too lucky, they can comprehend and repeat some gnostic explanations of Gin'Yursis.
First variant states for Kellhus ability to reinvent Aporos on the fly, because he was clearly making scientific breakthroughs while just listening to Akka's teachings abouth common math, logic etc. Second variant states for a bridge where even Aspect Emperor shall not pass. No halaroi allowed, lol, even if they are tweaked ones!
As for myself the second options looks more real. Two thousand years passed but there is no big signs that "conceptual leaps" could be made through pure human efforts. And we're talking abouth Scarlet Spires here. About few-hundred-year-old-mageocracy with tremendous intellectual power, who knows the overall direction of research.
So I can only guess what halaroi lack to invent gnosis and/or aporos by themselves. After all, cunuroi were a long-living specie with a lifespan about 400 years even before the inchoroi. Maybe it's just a difficulty of culture transmission & accumulation? One mortal cunuroi philosopher is equal to a sequence of 5-10 mortal halaroi adepts of a certain philosophic school, who will have to study their predecessors reflections and to live under a constant chance of extinction even before making their first worthwhile discoveries. Cunuroi is just a better basket for knowledge. :c
A second thought. Do they use aporos to make anarcane grounds or it's a meta-aporetic level of intervention? The most famous anarcane is Athrithau, located on the far north and near Ishterebinth. A former cunuroi lab, abandoned after ban on the Aporos?
A third thought. They should have some apotetics or meta-aporetics nerds in Min-Uroikas for anarcane is the opposite of topos. And it's generally a bad idea to be horribly damned and at the same time to live right somethere, where curious ciphrangs can just pop out of the thin air and grab your ancient consulty ass.
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Aporetics have no effect on a topos because like the shade of gin yursis the frame moves with them, it's why akka thinks the chorae should not have worked
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Aporetics have no effect on a topos because like the shade of gin yursis the frame moves with them, it's why akka thinks the chorae should not have worked
So, it is actually a kind of dûnyain-esque challenge in accordance with their emperical priority principle?
1. When ciphrang are summoned to World, choraes turn them to salt, because World*Aporos comes before Outside.
2. When topoi are formed, Outside comes before World*Aporos and choraes turn out to be completely useless (at best; at worst they may even 'protect' the reality of a local hell like they've protected the reality of a world).
What am I sneaking to? Is meta-aporos or even plain aporos powerful enough to turn the balance again and to come before Outside that came before World? It seems it is all about the proper fulcrum.
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Wilshire, it seems we have a defining quote: "The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be if the proper conceptual leaps were made" - which states an evolutionary link between two magical paradigms. All we need to consider is a factor of a nonmen participation, a true reason of that short "if".
Maybe, nonmen tutelage was just a time-saver which gave halaroi a new branch of sorcery a few thousand years earlier. Maybe, nonman's cognition is truly alien and acts as an essential ingredient, so halaroi by itself are limited to the forms of anagogic sorcery and, if they are too lucky, they can comprehend and repeat some gnostic explanations of Gin'Yursis.
First variant states for Kellhus ability to reinvent Aporos on the fly, because he was clearly making scientific breakthroughs while just listening to Akka's teachings abouth common math, logic etc. Second variant states for a bridge where even Aspect Emperor shall not pass. No halaroi allowed, lol, even if they are tweaked ones!
As for myself the second options looks more real. Two thousand years passed but there is no big signs that "conceptual leaps" could be made through pure human efforts. And we're talking abouth Scarlet Spires here. About few-hundred-year-old-mageocracy with tremendous intellectual power, who knows the overall direction of research.
So I can only guess what halaroi lack to invent gnosis and/or aporos by themselves. After all, cunuroi were a long-living specie with a lifespan about 400 years even before the inchoroi. Maybe it's just a difficulty of culture transmission & accumulation? One mortal cunuroi philosopher is equal to a sequence of 5-10 mortal halaroi adepts of a certain philosophic school, who will have to study their predecessors reflections and to live under a constant chance of extinction even before making their first worthwhile discoveries. Cunuroi is just a better basket for knowledge. :c
I don't agree with your conclusion, mostly for the reasons you stated.
I think the quote points to a surmountable leap from the anagogic to the gnostic sorceries. The nonmen were absolutely ancient when men came to Earwa. 10,000+ years of research, in a society that revered magic, or at least held it in high esteem. Even the SS's several hundred years, or man's several thousands, do not at all compare to the time and resources the Nonmen had. Men have only just started their journey into the realm of magic.
Also, consider we have 2 kinds of sorcery, one of intellect, and one of emotions. The Psuke could never be derived or expounded by Kellhus, but the gnostic/anagogic certainly should be. It pure intellect, and like you said, Kellhus was making massive cognitive leaps when he was being tutored by Akka in all subjects. I think Kellhus could have derived the Gnosis, if he had only an SS tutor and a few years or decades to study.
A second thought. Do they use aporos to make anarcane grounds or it's a meta-aporetic level of intervention? The most famous anarcane is Athrithau, located on the far north and near Ishterebinth. A former cunuroi lab, abandoned after ban on the Aporos?
I have often thought that this was a distinct possibility.
A third thought. They should have some apotetics or meta-aporetics nerds in Min-Uroikas for anarcane is the opposite of topos. And it's generally a bad idea to be horribly damned and at the same time to live right somethere, where curious ciphrangs can just pop out of the thin air and grab your ancient consulty ass.
The Aporos was pretty well buried when it was banned, so I think its an entirely lost art. Although, does anyone recall if the Consult manufactured their own chorae? If they did have some mastery before, then they might have some frustrating anti-magic tactics
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I may be recalling incorrectly but I thought the Aporos was banned before the production of Chorae. The Chorae being made by the defected Nonman Quya who studied the Aporos inside the Ark under the Consult.
Anyone else clarify?
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I think you have it right SR. The Quya that went over to the consult manufactured Chorae after the Nonmen under CC took them to task...
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This seems correct. They gave tons of chorae to sranc, and it seems unlikely that the Nonmen would ever have produced them in that number.
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I may be recalling incorrectly but I thought the Aporos was banned before the production of Chorae. The Chorae being made by the defected Nonman Quya who studied the Aporos inside the Ark under the Consult.
Anyone else clarify?
I think you have it right SR. The Quya that went over to the consult manufactured Chorae after the Nonmen under CC took them to task...
Not the Consult, Inchoroi.
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An interesting and important distinction. Since the Consult didn't exist for several thousand years, this could me a couple of things.
The Inchoroi themselves learned the Aporos from the Quya defectors. They would therefore have been manufacturing various aporetic devices for millennia.
The Quya Aporetics were unable or unwilling to give the sorcery to the Inchoroi, and it died with them. If some Aporeti exist still, it would potentially have the same effect as stated above.
Shae may have been able to learn the Aporetic arts from either surviving erratic Quya, or from information left behind.
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Not the Consult, Inchoroi.
So either Aurax or Aurang manufactured the Chorae?
Aren't they the only two that survived the "species wide graft" that enabled the Inchoroi to perform sorcery, thus enabling them to pursue the Aporos?
I always thought it was either the defected Quya or the Mangaeecca that made the Chorae under Inchoroi direction/supervision.
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What I meant is that the Nonmen who defected were working for the Inchoroi, not the Consult.
The Consult or Mangaecca didn’t exist when the Chorae were being made, which, as far as we know took place in the years preceding the Womb-Plague.
As for whether someone within the Consult knows the Aporos and has created more Chorae... that’s possible. But I do recall Bakker saying that he intended the Aporos to be a long lost ancient art or something.
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Just to clarify, here are two relevant quotes from Bakker on TSF,
The Chorae are actually sorcerous artifacts (of something called the 'Aporos'), manufactured prior to the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars (by Quya defectors) as a way for the Inchoroi to counter the sorcery of the Nonmen. The script inscribed across each embodies a contradiction that unravels the semantics of all known Cants - even those of the Aporos!
My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist!
That last sentence leaves open the possibility of it coming back.
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I love that the aporos somehow unravels its own cants. Ridiculous.
Though, that does seem to point towards something important about the differences between written and spoken forms of magics.
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I love that the aporos somehow unravels its own cants. Ridiculous.
Heh. I just came across this q&a from that same thread,
Andrew: So then how did the Quya defectors manage to inscribe them?
Cujara Cinmoi: I'm afraid you've touched world-building bottom with that one, Andrew!
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lmao thanks for that.
So then, along those lines, the aporos must then be dead, unless years later Bakker solved his own riddle. Maybe this is what he has been working on all this time...
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It's possible the Aporetics were either dead or fled from the Ark by the time the Inchoroi managed to graft sorcery to themselves. Also Aurang and Aurax weren't the only ones to survive the grafting. There were others. I can't remember the exact number, but it was very small. Like, count-on-two-hands small. It was more than just the twins, though.
Also interesting confirmation that there are Aporetic cants. I always assumed that to be the case, but I have seen others assume that the Aporesis is basically nothing but chorae production.
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Yeah the Cants interest me a lot. I alway imagine things like a bubble/sphere of anarcane ground/area
I think it was something like 6 survived the Onta graph.
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It's possible the Aporetics were either dead or fled from the Ark by the time the Inchoroi managed to graft sorcery to themselves. Also Aurang and Aurax weren't the only ones to survive the grafting. There were others. I can't remember the exact number, but it was very small. Like, count-on-two-hands small. It was more than just the twins, though.
Also interesting confirmation that there are Aporetic cants. I always assumed that to be the case, but I have seen others assume that the Aporesis is basically nothing but chorae production.
Presumably the barricades manipulating/folding space are aporos, I would think. Got that idea when someone suggested chorae fold meaning.
My latest crackpot is that it's no coincidence the chorae first appear after the womb plague. My theory is each individual chorae is manufactured from an individual womb of a cunoroi female. The inchoroi were harvesting.
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Any estimates on the number of Nonmen females vs. the number of chorae? I always had the impression that the Nonmen were never great in numbers, and that there are million of chorae (most owned by the Inchoroi or lost).
Souls harvested as they entered the world, trapped and held by the chorae inscriptions... Sounds like a precursor to the Carapace.
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Let's not forget Mimara's revelation that the Chorae are actually Tears of God...she can see the 'goodness' or 'rightness' of Chorae...that said, is it not possible that the guys that made the chorae were priests/prophets of some kind? How old are the chorae, anyway? what links the God to the Chorae? Sorcery is imperfect reality...no way, sorcerers (gnostic or quya) could have made the Chorae by uttering a few cants or whatever...the mark would be evident and i dont think it would be such an effective anti-mage device as it is...perhaps chorae are the result of a certain combination of events like topoi...those who engage in aporos simply take advantage of existing conditions...
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Mimara altered the Chorae somehow. Gave it properties it didn't always have. It changed as she watched it. It didn't normally look like a "Tear of God", before or after.
The makers of the Chorae were specifically described as Aporetic sorcerors. They use entirely different metaphysics from the Gnosis. The lack of a mark (or rather, the very different mark that expresses itself as a profound absence) may be a product of the difference in metaphysics.
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Let's not forget Mimara's revelation that the Chorae are actually Tears of God...she can see the 'goodness' or 'rightness' of Chorae...that said, is it not possible that the guys that made the chorae were priests/prophets of some kind? How old are the chorae, anyway? what links the God to the Chorae? Sorcery is imperfect reality...no way, sorcerers (gnostic or quya) could have made the Chorae by uttering a few cants or whatever...the mark would be evident and i dont think it would be such an effective anti-mage device as it is...perhaps chorae are the result of a certain combination of events like topoi...those who engage in aporos simply take advantage of existing conditions...
As long as cishaurims can whisper their meaning right into the God's voice without imperfecting it, there is always a chance for other loopholes.
Also, here's a lil crackpot with a post-apocalyptic taste of misusing technoly: true purpose of chorae was never revealed. Maybe they are eggs of anarcane grounds (here's a nice connection with a certain desert clan of water-bearers). Or counter-sorcery bombs yet to be activated.
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Mimara altered the Chorae somehow. Gave it properties it didn't always have. It changed as she watched it. It didn't normally look like a "Tear of God", before or after.
The makers of the Chorae were specifically described as Aporetic sorcerors. They use entirely different metaphysics from the Gnosis. The lack of a mark (or rather, the very different mark that expresses itself as a profound absence) may be a product of the difference in metaphysics.
woah! i had never thought of that! so Mimara forces the chorae to become a tear of god -- does this mean she could look at the No-God and cause it to become God? or something?
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Who knows. The Judging Eye isn't well understood and has apparently not been extensively studied. All Akka knew about it was folk tradition, more or less.
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Right...the cishaurim somehow skipped my mind...anyone remember when Soma said he couldnt see Mimara properly when she still gripped the Chorae?...she was 'shadowy' or something...perhaps, u guys are right and Mimara altered the chorae or maybe made contact with the Outside in some way...this makes her potential even greater...
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That was specifically because her grip on the chorae cancelled the sorcerous light Akka was generating, but a double-meaning is certainly possible.
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Anyone think Mimara might have the ability to negate Chorae or act as a natural Chorae?
By our understanding the Chorae should have never banished the Wight in the mountain - the Wight wasn't imposing a reality on the objective plane it was dragging its own subjective frame Inward (its own Circle of Will from the Outside) if you will.
On that note - that would be a great creation for the Inchies - a SkinSpy chorae. Chame they lost most of their Tekne knowledge hundreds of thousands of years ago while still travelling the void - probably before they landed on the Waterworld they exterminated before coming to Earwa.
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Who knows. The Judging Eye isn't well understood and has apparently not been extensively studied. All Akka knew about it was folk tradition, more or less.
i don't think Akka has said all that he knows yet, hopefully that will be another big reveal in TUC. whatdoyoubet that Akka doesn't tell Mimara everything that he knows until she is about to give birth? speaking of which, Bakker's got the readers thinking that the baby won't live, wouldn't it be cool if it did?
and then Aurax could eat it
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Anyone think Mimara might have the ability to negate Chorae or act as a natural Chorae?
An anti-chorae? I don't think so
On that note - that would be a great creation for the Inchies - a SkinSpy chorae. Chame they lost most of their Tekne knowledge hundreds of thousands of years ago while still travelling the void - probably before they landed on the Waterworld they exterminated before coming to Earwa.
That would be ineffective as an infiltration unit as they would bear the anti-mark of the chorae, so they'd need a name change, but that would have been very powerful. Hell, just a spy holding a chorae...