The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: MSJ on July 26, 2015, 10:12:25 pm
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I think that anyone who has read the series, would agree that "someone" is manipulating events on Earwa. We've had many theories on the prowess of Moe, you could say the Gods, but who I claim it to be is Seswatha.
There has been several suggestions that we will find out that Seswatha HAD some alternative motive or wasn't who he was portrayed to be. I've done multiple rereads and I am in the process of one at the moment. And, I find that all signs point to Seswatha being the Master Manipulator.
First, what got this little theory of mine started, was that I found it to be weird that in The Sagas[/i,] Esme notes that Seswatha is never the described the same or he isn't described well at all. This is the very reason The Mandate gives no credence to it. Also, is the fact of the "grasping" of Seswatha's heart. This seems eerily similar to Shae's soul trapping device described in the sample chapter.
I believe Seswatha took the Celmommas Prophecy literal and went to extreme lengths to make sure he was there at the end of the world. Akka has a dream where Celmommas confides to Seswatha the location of Ishual. I believe Seswatha sent the Dûnyain to Ishual and that they are his secret weapon. He realized that to truly defeat the Consult mankind would need a superhuman, a self-moving soul who could truly speak with the God's voice, enter Kellhus. He's the culmination of Seswatha's original plan.
Now, this takes nothing away to the theory that Moe was manipulating events of the first trilogy. In fact, during my current reread its glaringly obvious. I just say that Moe was being manipulated also, by the Dûnyain elders. To take a phrase from Lockesnow, the Dûnyain was just a Truman show. There true intent a purpose was only known to an elect few, the elders (or hell, maybe it will be revealed the Dûnyain women). So, the Dûnyain was just a tool of Seswatha to breed and create a humans that will be effective against the Consult during the 2nd Apocalypse. I believe that Magic was known to them just hidden and that they still have a huge part to play. They just won't be waiting inside of Ishual when Akka and Mimara get there. But, something will be....
Seswatha's other tool has never been a secret, The Mandate. This is how Seswatha is able to keep an eye over events and know when the time is right to set his plan into motion. And Akka is his tool. I believe why Akka has come to be a Prophet of the Past is to actually be Seswatha's hand in these events. I believe what will be waiting on Akka will be the Heron Spear, deep in The Thousand Thousand Halls.
I'm also positive that Meppa is his 3 rd tool in the events of the 2nd Apocalypse. I like to think that he is a combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion. And that somehow he will play a crucial part in theses events.
Well, that is my theory on who is manipulating events on Earwa. Please rip it to shreds, or offer your opinions on who the manipulator could be.
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I'm not really down with Seswatha as an active participant, but I definitely feel like he's a bigger part of the darkness that precedes than we are explicitly shown.
However, I'll throw some wood on your fire with something he would likely be involved with if you are right.
The wathi doll ... specifically the way it dug itself out of the ruins of the library, powered up by eating the tabby cat's lifeforce and trekked to the compound, waited til the SS weren't looking and then scratched out the uborian circle. Remember, Akka was unconcious and then sorcerously restrained so that even his incipient wards were removed. The uborian ward prevented him from speaking any sorcery.
To me, it was Khellus' doing (as he had already spoken the doll's cipher) - but Seswatha is a definite possibility.
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I think Seswatha is the true "man in the shadows." The more I think about things, as they are in the moment, the more everything seems to point back to Seswatha.
Consider the following:
1.) Seswatha is the one who "heard" the Celmomian Prophecy, no one else.
2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
3.) Celmomas' plan seemed to be to have Ganrelka II inhabit Ishual to continue the line. He couldn't have anticipated the 'plague' that killed them. Therefor the most likely culprit on who sent the Dunyain there is Seswatha.
4.) The Dunyain stated intention is the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (see point 1).
5.) Perhaps most importantly, almost everything we know of the Apocalypse comes from (or through) Seswatha. The dreams, presented as 'fact' by Akka, mainly because they are seem real to him (and so, it would seem to us), not to mention the Isûphiryas, the Nonman history before the coming of Man, "saved by Seswatha, who delivered it to the scribes of the Three Seas." Is it no wonder that The Sagas, the human history of the Apocalyse, seem to paint a different picture from the Mandate's canon on events? Also no wonder that we never really get to read them?
6.) The Mandate: the dreams are not immutable, in fact, they seem almost directed. Again, Seswatha is a clear hand here.
To me, it seems clear that the Second Apocalypse is a clear set up by Seswatha. Kellhus is made to break the game, end the cycle. Everything else, Seswatha has manipulated to help him achieve this. Prevention was never an aim. The Mandate, the Dunyain are made to bring about the Apocalypse, not prevent it. The First Apocalypse was on the Consult's terms. The Second is on Seswatha's.
Or something like that...
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2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
C'mon, H, don't leave us hanging like that! ;D
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2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
C'mon, H, don't leave us hanging like that! ;D
Dude it's point 3, it wasn't that long a wait, haha.
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Holy shit. How did I miss that...
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Holy shit. How did I miss that...
Because my writing is super unclear, :-[
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H,
I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.
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I think that anyone who has read the series, would agree that "someone" is manipulating events on Earwa. We've had many theories on the prowess of Moe, you could say the Gods, but who I claim it to be is Seswatha.
Ah good, well at least you didn't say it was Moe. I agree with you, Seswatha seems to be hidden in the shadows, especially given that Shae is still pulling the strings with the Consult eons later.
There has been several suggestions that we will find out that Seswatha HAD some alternative motive or wasn't who he was portrayed to be. I've done multiple rereads and I am in the process of one at the moment. And, I find that all signs point to Seswatha being the Master Manipulator.
First, what got this little theory of mine started, was that I found it to be weird that in The Sagas[/i,] Esme notes that Seswatha is never the described the same or he isn't described well at all. This is the very reason The Mandate gives no credence to it. Also, is the fact of the "grasping" of Seswatha's heart. This seems eerily similar to Shae's soul trapping device described in the sample chapter.
The misalignment with the dreams and the Sagas, and other bits of historical facts that are written elsewhere do point to some inconsistencies, which means one or the other are lying. It seems likely that Seswatha was the one lying as he was the one painting the most vivid picture of events, and its not like anyone can cross-reference his 'story' which is proclaimed as the absolute truth: him showing you his life as he lived it.
I believe Seswatha took the Celmommas Prophecy literal and went to extreme lengths to make sure he was there at the end of the world. Akka has a dream where Celmommas confides to Seswatha the location of Ishual. I believe Seswatha sent the Dûnyain to Ishual and that they are his secret weapon. He realized that to truly defeat the Consult mankind would need a superhuman, a self-moving soul who could truly speak with the God's voice, enter Kellhus. He's the culmination of Seswatha's original plan.
If Seswatha worked closely enough with the Nonmen for long enough, he may have adopted some of their sentiments, along with some of their long term perspective. Not only is the Mangecca something of the mortal, or at least natural, enemy of the Sohonc, but so too the Inchoroi to the Nonmen. The Dunyain seem some kind of mesh of Seswatha and Nonmen ideology, and Seswatha sending them to Ishual to forcefully fulfill the Celmomas Prophecy seems plausible.
Now, this takes nothing away to the theory that Moe was manipulating events of the first trilogy. In fact, during my current reread its glaringly obvious. I just say that Moe was being manipulated also, by the Dûnyain elders. To take a phrase from Lockesnow, the Dûnyain was just a Truman show. There true intent a purpose was only known to an elect few, the elders (or hell, maybe it will be revealed the Dûnyain women). So, the Dûnyain was just a tool of Seswatha to breed and create a humans that will be effective against the Consult during the 2nd Apocalypse. I believe that Magic was known to them just hidden and that they still have a huge part to play. They just won't be waiting inside of Ishual when Akka and Mimara get there. But, something will be....
I think it would be a fair reveal to have a master manipulator within the Dunyain manipulating those that get sent out, i.e Moe and Kellhus, etc. However, something of a Dune twist, their own creation got away from them/came too early, etc.
And I agree, this doesn't detract from Moe being the puppetmaster in PoN, I just think his time has passed, or at least him sitting on the throne as master manipulator is done.
Seswatha's other tool has never been a secret, The Mandate. This is how Seswatha is able to keep an eye over events and know when the time is right to set his plan into motion. And Akka is his tool. I believe why Akka has come to be a Prophet of the Past is to actually be Seswatha's hand in these events. I believe what will be waiting on Akka will be the Heron Spear, deep in The Thousand Thousand Halls.
First/Second Foundation analogues, and kwisatz haderach from Dune. Kellhus being the culmination of both weapons forming one mighty hammer with which Seswatha may wield to destroy his dread foe. I can dig it. I think it may be a stretch to say anyone can wield the Dunyain and/or Kellhus as they have been shown to us, but some further reveal of whats really happening behind the curtain could make it all possible in a satisfactory way.
I'm also positive that Meppa is his 3 rd tool in the events of the 2nd Apocalypse. I like to think that he is a combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion. And that somehow he will play a crucial part in theses events.
Meppa remains an enigma to me. A fishy combination of Moenghus and Cnaiur if you ask me, and the lost memories... He's definitely someones tool, but I have no guesses as to whose.
Well, that is my theory on who is manipulating events on Earwa. Please rip it to shreds, or offer your opinions on who the manipulator could be.
See above ;)
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I'm not really down with Seswatha as an active participant, but I definitely feel like he's a bigger part of the darkness that precedes than we are explicitly shown.
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To me, it was Khellus' doing (as he had already spoken the doll's cipher) - but Seswatha is a definite possibility.
I am torn. There would have to be some pretty big reveals to have Seswatha fit the role, but I think something bigger must be behind Kellhus. His story is strangest of all, and Bakker hiding his POV post TTT was a brilliant stroke. Could go any way.
I think Seswatha is the true "man in the shadows." The more I think about things, as they are in the moment, the more everything seems to point back to Seswatha.
Consider the following:
1.) Seswatha is the one who "heard" the Celmomian Prophecy, no one else.
Easily could read "made up". The nature of Prophecy in Earwa is something a point of contention, since Aurang mentions something about 'false' prophecies. Maybe Seswatha knew exactly what he was doing when he told the story of that Prophecy, making forcing it into reality.
2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
3.) Celmomas' plan seemed to be to have Ganrelka II inhabit Ishual to continue the line. He couldn't have anticipated the 'plague' that killed them. Therefor the most likely culprit on who sent the Dunyain there is Seswatha.
The biggest gap here is that we don't know that Seswatha was engaged with the creation/shaping of the Dunyain. That said, seems terribly convenient the way its all played out for that not to be the case.
4.) The Dunyain stated intention is the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (see point 1).
I didn't follow that. How do you know?
5.) Perhaps most importantly, almost everything we know of the Apocalypse comes from (or through) Seswatha. The dreams, presented as 'fact' by Akka, mainly because they are seem real to him (and so, it would seem to us), not to mention the Isûphiryas, the Nonman history before the coming of Man, "saved by Seswatha, who delivered it to the scribes of the Three Seas." Is it no wonder that The Sagas, the human history of the Apocalyse, seem to paint a different picture from the Mandate's canon on events? Also no wonder that we never really get to read them?
I agree completely. My response to the OP seems to match up with this pretty well and I hadn't read this yet :).
6.) The Mandate: the dreams are not immutable, in fact, they seem almost directed. Again, Seswatha is a clear hand here.
I don't know about clear, but its at least hidden. Dreams changing based on surrounding events, specifically timing of events, must mean something, and who else other than Seswatha?
To me, it seems clear that the Second Apocalypse is a clear set up by Seswatha. Kellhus is made to break the game, end the cycle. Everything else, Seswatha has manipulated to help him achieve this. Prevention was never an aim. The Mandate, the Dunyain are made to bring about the Apocalypse, not prevent it. The First Apocalypse was on the Consult's terms. The Second is on Seswatha's.
Or something like that...
Love the bold.
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Wilshire,
I have never read Dune, but, I gather most of the regulars here have. I've seen the comparisons before. I bought the trilogy, just haven't made the leap yet. Thanks for your insight.
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H,
I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.
A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell. I think it was all part of the plan. Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him. The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense. He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse. It was and so Moe sent dreams back. The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves. The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.
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I am torn. There would have to be some pretty big reveals to have Seswatha fit the role, but I think something bigger must be behind Kellhus. His story is strangest of all, and Bakker hiding his POV post TTT was a brilliant stroke. Could go any way.
And I have felt the same. Yet the only that tugs me in this direction is Madness's reading of The Unholy. And, him saying it was reveal upon reveal. So, its doable.
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H,
I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.
A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell. I think it was all part of the plan. Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him. The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense. He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse. It was and so Moe sent dreams back. The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves. The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.
Yes, that's the hidden Manipulator who we're speaking about. They'd have to be behind it all. My money is on Seswatha, yet I could see this being some female Nonman magi. Because, we're supposed to get some big reveal on the feminine.
ETA: she would also explain the inhanced abilities of the Dûnyain if she is the "brood made" also. Damn, if that's the case, I hope there are multiple female Nonmen. You know, so the internet doesn't explode.
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H,
I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.
A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell. I think it was all part of the plan. Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him. The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense. He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse. It was and so Moe sent dreams back. The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves. The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.
Thats a good perspective I have not really considered. Seems pretty good, though remember that Kellhus does not actually see the Pragma die. He sees them filing down the stairs, allegedly to the Thousand Thousand halls. Even if they went there, I somehow doubt they sat around and died if they were in the know. Given the state of Ishual, its more likely to me that they set about bringing Ishual to ruin and leaving in secret to do whatever else it is they had to do.... Or just leaving Ishual, knowing that Kellhus and the rest of the herd thought them to be dead.
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Shae. He's the OG of scheming in Earwa.
Moenghus though obviously I re read the scene where Iyokus takes Eleazarus for a post-mortem on the plains of Mengedda. I really feel like he knew every decision Kellhus would make, down to a frighteningly specific level.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
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I think Seswatha is the true "man in the shadows." The more I think about things, as they are in the moment, the more everything seems to point back to Seswatha.
Consider the following:
1.) Seswatha is the one who "heard" the Celmomian Prophecy, no one else.
Easily could read "made up". The nature of Prophecy in Earwa is something a point of contention, since Aurang mentions something about 'false' prophecies. Maybe Seswatha knew exactly what he was doing when he told the story of that Prophecy, making forcing it into reality.
Well, I am not good at saying things eloquently, haha. It did always bother me, the whole thing about prophecy not working, so to speak, because it seemed like they were all saying it couldn't be true, while simultaneously bending over backwards to make sure it was.
2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
3.) Celmomas' plan seemed to be to have Ganrelka II inhabit Ishual to continue the line. He couldn't have anticipated the 'plague' that killed them. Therefor the most likely culprit on who sent the Dunyain there is Seswatha.
The biggest gap here is that we don't know that Seswatha was engaged with the creation/shaping of the Dunyain. That said, seems terribly convenient the way its all played out for that not to be the case.
It's a circumstantial case at best, but I'll stick by it, until proved otherwise, haha
4.) The Dunyain stated intention is the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (see point 1).
I didn't follow that. How do you know?
For me, actions speak a lot louder than words. By sending out Moe, they set the Phrophecy into motion. Perhaps they knew, perhaps not, but someone did and someone made it happen. To me, there are no such things as coincidence. No way they have their greatest student right at the moment where a rando band of Sranc force his being sent in to the world. To me, it's totally clear that the Dunyain were fulfilling their objective in that moment.
5.) Perhaps most importantly, almost everything we know of the Apocalypse comes from (or through) Seswatha. The dreams, presented as 'fact' by Akka, mainly because they are seem real to him (and so, it would seem to us), not to mention the Isûphiryas, the Nonman history before the coming of Man, "saved by Seswatha, who delivered it to the scribes of the Three Seas." Is it no wonder that The Sagas, the human history of the Apocalyse, seem to paint a different picture from the Mandate's canon on events? Also no wonder that we never really get to read them?
I agree completely. My response to the OP seems to match up with this pretty well and I hadn't read this yet :).
What's that about great minds, ;)
To me, it seems clear that the Second Apocalypse is a clear set up by Seswatha. Kellhus is made to break the game, end the cycle. Everything else, Seswatha has manipulated to help him achieve this. Prevention was never an aim. The Mandate, the Dunyain are made to bring about the Apocalypse, not prevent it. The First Apocalypse was on the Consult's terms. The Second is on Seswatha's.
Or something like that...
Love the bold.
Thanks, 8)
Thats a good perspective I have not really considered. Seems pretty good, though remember that Kellhus does not actually see the Pragma die. He sees them filing down the stairs, allegedly to the Thousand Thousand halls. Even if they went there, I somehow doubt they sat around and died if they were in the know. Given the state of Ishual, its more likely to me that they set about bringing Ishual to ruin and leaving in secret to do whatever else it is they had to do.... Or just leaving Ishual, knowing that Kellhus and the rest of the herd thought them to be dead.
Very true. At least we know they recused themselves. If Kell didn't have to die, why should they? But I think they knew they had to get away from Kellhus.
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Shae. He's the OG of scheming in Earwa.
Moenghus though obviously I re read the scene where Iyokus takes Eleazarus for a post-mortem on the plains of Mengedda. I really feel like he knew every decision Kellhus would make, down to a frighteningly specific level.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Well, I can't say your wrong. He's just manipulating for the wrong side, yo! Unless you subscribe that the Dûnyain are aligned with the Consult. I've lost that delusion. EAMD
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Also, since I'm about halfway through TDTCB, my 3rd reread. I've seen a couple things early that point to Seswatha being a bigger part of this story. First, I believe right of the bat Seswatha is starting to manipulate Akka's dreams. He notes in one of his first dreams we see that when he looks in the mirror he see's himself and not Seswatha, notes how odd that is. Secondly, when he's meeting with Inrau and Sarcellus knocks him to the ground he whispers in Akka's ear, "Oh, how I've longed to do that!". Right there is a skin spy speaking to Seswatha and you would never pick that up unless on a reread. And, it enforces the idea, to me, that Seswatha is part of this thing hands on. It actually shocked me when I read it, like a subtle clue left so early on.
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Shae. He's the OG of scheming in Earwa.
Moenghus though obviously I re read the scene where Iyokus takes Eleazarus for a post-mortem on the plains of Mengedda. I really feel like he knew every decision Kellhus would make, down to a frighteningly specific level.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Well, I can't say your wrong. He's just manipulating for the wrong side, yo! Unless you subscribe that the Dûnyain are aligned with the Consult. I've lost that delusion. EAMD
There is the option that this is a huge pissing contest between Shae and Seswatha though.
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There is the option that this is a huge pissing contest between Shae and Seswatha though.
I'd say that is exactly what is going on. But, there are some huge stakes in this pissing contest.......
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Also, since I'm about halfway through TDTCB, my 3rd reread. I've seen a couple things early that point to Seswatha being a bigger part of this story. First, I believe right of the bat Seswatha is starting to manipulate Akka's dreams. He notes in one of his first dreams we see that when he looks in the mirror he see's himself and not Seswatha, notes how odd that is. Secondly, when he's meeting with Inrau and Sarcellus knocks him to the ground he whispers in Akka's ear, "Oh, how I've longed to do that!". Right there is a skin spy speaking to Seswatha and you would never pick that up unless on a reread. And, it enforces the idea, to me, that Seswatha is part of this thing hands on. It actually shocked me when I read it, like a subtle clue left so early on.
TDTCB was the only one I read 3 times, the rest twice, and even on the 3rd read there are still things like that which jump out. Shits crazy.
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I reread the series twice, but now I kind of reread select parts here and there, in my quest for minutia.
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I reread the series twice, but now I kind of reread select parts here and there, in my quest for minutia.
H, I know exactly what you mean. It feels like every time I re-read the Kellhus/Moe dialogue, for example, I discover yet another tiny bit that *might* end up being important. And the portion of TJE where Akka decides to let Mimara into the tower.
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I'd say that is exactly what is going on. But, there are some huge stakes in this pissing contest.......
What better game to play then the one with the highest possible stakes though?
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Also, since I'm about halfway through TDTCB, my 3rd reread. I've seen a couple things early that point to Seswatha being a bigger part of this story. First, I believe right of the bat Seswatha is starting to manipulate Akka's dreams. He notes in one of his first dreams we see that when he looks in the mirror he see's himself and not Seswatha, notes how odd that is. Secondly, when he's meeting with Inrau and Sarcellus knocks him to the ground he whispers in Akka's ear, "Oh, how I've longed to do that!". Right there is a skin spy speaking to Seswatha and you would never pick that up unless on a reread. And, it enforces the idea, to me, that Seswatha is part of this thing hands on. It actually shocked me when I read it, like a subtle clue left so early on.
Ime pretty sure every Skin-Spy has spoken to Seswatha thru the Mandati. Chigra Almost as if instead of seeing the mark the Skin-spys see him
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Also, since I'm about halfway through TDTCB, my 3rd reread. I've seen a couple things early that point to Seswatha being a bigger part of this story. First, I believe right of the bat Seswatha is starting to manipulate Akka's dreams. He notes in one of his first dreams we see that when he looks in the mirror he see's himself and not Seswatha, notes how odd that is. Secondly, when he's meeting with Inrau and Sarcellus knocks him to the ground he whispers in Akka's ear, "Oh, how I've longed to do that!". Right there is a skin spy speaking to Seswatha and you would never pick that up unless on a reread. And, it enforces the idea, to me, that Seswatha is part of this thing hands on. It actually shocked me when I read it, like a subtle clue left so early on.
Ime pretty sure every Skin-Spy has spoken to Seswatha thru the Mandati. Chigra Almost as if instead of seeing the mark the Skin-spys see him
Right, they always do. Just this instance none of that is explained as of yet. And what it said to me is that they've (skins spies) have been waging this war with the Mandate (Seswatha) since they've been around. Seswatha is their true enemy, not Akka or any other Mandate Schoolmen. And, like I was saying, upon first read you would think Sarcellus is just speaking to Akka. He's not though, he's saying that to Chigra (Seswatha). Almost as if Akka meant nothing to him, he was just so satisfied to smack Seswatha.
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Honestly when it comes to master manipulators, Nerdenal's 'Meketrig is behind everything' is still the most complete hypothesis I've seen - whilst still seeming highly unlikely.
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Please point me in the right direction. I'd love to read it.
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Uh, I think she/he outlined better it in some of the ancient westeros threads.
But here is a surviving pertinent fragment from threeseas.com.
I think even the highest ranks of the Dûnyain are truly ignorant of sorcery. Otherwise Kellhus would have been able to sense the Mark on them and would have later made the connection. Of course it's possible he did and it just wasn't told to the reader, but I doubt it.
This erasing of information raises questions on just who was behind the thought processes that lead to the deliberate forgetting about the Outside and why. Honest search for the truth does not explain it. My theory is that the Dûnyain were a covert Consult organization so secret that even most of the Consult didn't know about it, even though its acts of assassination and sabotage had a massive effect on the war. I think Mekeritrig was likely the one responsible, but with his memory problems he doesn't remember it. He keeps notes though, and his meeting with Kellhus was no accident but part of his complex plan to bring about the triumph of the No-God and also to kill the last surviving Inchoroi. (The No-God is fine with the last part because of how incompetent the Consult has been. Kellhus didn't lie to Aurang about that.) Mekeritrig carefully constructed the Dûnyain society to resist change and guided the Dûnyain though magic wardings to Ishual, knowing that after a few thousand years his tools would have become refined and powerful indeed through the power of selective breeding while still remaining his tools.
Mekeritrig made the darkness that came before the Dûnyain in order to predict their reactions and thus control them, and by extension, control the world.
Source (http://forum.three-seas.com/users/894)
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I guess I am just cold to the idea that the Consult wouldn't know what the Consult is really doing. It just seems so counter-productive. Not to mention the fact that such a shadowy behind-the-scenes move hardly seems like a move for an Erratic like Mek. He is driven by his desire to remember, not a desire to manipulate from the shadows.
A Mekeritrig-Seswatha connection is possible though, since we are totally in the dark how Seswatha escapes the Wall of the Dead, with a Agonic Collar on him, and Mekeritrig seeming intent on making him reveal where the Heron Spear is.
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Wel, one thing pointed out that doesn't kill the thought of Seswatha behind them, but certainly renders them useless. Is Kellhus would've sensed the Mark on them if they knew magic. Unless, as Nerdanel said, he just doesn't reveal that to the reader. I never thought of that before, and is a great point.
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I would guess that if he saw the mark it would have been mentioned tangentially, like it was when he was fighting Mek. But I think the true masterminds, if they were at Ishual, would have had to have been completely sequestered from Kellhus. Mark or not, I think he would have suspected, or have potentially suspected, that the truth was being obfuscated.
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I want to kind of revise my theory, I think all the Dunyain are actually in the dark about the whole plan, necessarily.
What we're not privy to is who decided to send Moe out into the world, but there is no chance, in my mind, that it was just an accident. Either they were somehow informed to do it, or somehow the circumstances were supremely contrived.
Thinking about it, if Moe was completely compromised after the first trip, how would sending him back out help? They stated that they had him go out in the first place to make sure they were not compromised. Why not have him "retreat" to the TTH like the "compromised" Pragma? The story does not add up, as we're (really, Kellhus) told it.
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Yup. That whole back story read like nonsense upon reflection, and/or after a second read.
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I agree, it changes nothing. Either they were isolated from Kellhus as Wilshire says, or someone outside the Dûnyain manipulating them.
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I prefer to think that someone within the Dunyain are in the know, and that we have some historical tie-ins with Seswatah/Nil-Giccas/someone else from history.
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I prefer to think that someone within the Dunyain are in the know, and that we have some historical tie-ins with Seswatah/Nil-Giccas/someone else from history.
I think there must be some kind of trip in the TTH that told Seswatha when He-Who-Would-Become-The-Harbinger was finally ready. When that happened, Seswatha either appeared to certain Pragma (a la, Foundation Hari Selden), or Seswatha manipulated the Sranc to appear at Ishual and so the Pragma to send out Moe.
This is part of why I feel like someone in the Consult running this whole thing feel highly improbable, because in order to set this all in motion, it requires too much of Shae working against his own constituents. If Shae spun all this, he would be putting A&A in the path of a huge amount of danger, and by extension, himself. If something were to go wrong, he'd be almost all there is left.
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I could definitely see Mekeritrig being one of the principals behind the Dunyain. I wrote this in the good or evil thread but I'm guessing Seswatha disclosed to him the location and significance of Ishual at Dagliash. I could see him and Shae being in on it together, since Shae considered him a friend before Aurang became his lover.
There's also little hints about the similarities between what Erratics say and the Dunyain principles. Not to mention "the Darkness that comes before" being personified by the goddess Onkhis, who Shae seems to worship, through his internal monolog in The False Sun.
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This from Anaturinbor over on Westeros:
I should have said 'if someone has to go into the carapace' as I'm not completely on-board with that idea. But on a reread it seemed to me that Bakker has been prepping Achamian to become the NG from the very beginning. Could be part of Seswatha's grand plan even.
We was discussing who if anyone would placed in the carapace of the No-God. Thought it could be relevant to this discussion. Though I'm not of the opinion its true, I won't discount it. Thought its was interesting and something I haven't heard suggested before.
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"Poor" Akka just can't catch a break.
I wanted to ask (but chickened out) for Ant to elaborate on what clues he'd found during his reread. It's an interesting theory for sure.
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Yeah I don't know about a person actually being inside the carapace. I always considered it to contain some kind of ethereal being.
"Poor" Akka just can't catch a break.
I wanted to ask (but chickened out) for Ant to elaborate on what clues he'd found during his reread. It's an interesting theory for sure.
Yes, hard to discuss the finer points without... well without the finer points!
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So, I'm almost at the end of TDTCB, the scene where Cnaüir is going over everything that has taken place. He's trying to figure out Moe and Kellhus's intentions. And he asks himself, "Is Kellhus still in contact with Meöenghus?". One can only assume he's thinking via dreams, and it got me thinking
If we go from Kellhus's story, the Pragma's received dreams, correct? And I know there is the whole deal that the sender has to know where the receiver is. Yet, the only instances we see this its via two Sorceror's. In TWP, isn't one stationed with Cnaüir? He explains the whole bit, right? Well if anyone can recieve the dreams than why need a sorceror as the receiver? What I'm getting at is it basically proves that someone either knew sorcery at Ishual, or it is rock solid proof that the story is a blatant lie. Its not like we have any instances of a sorceror communicating with a non-sorceror. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall any, at all.
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I think all the times we see that, it is via the Anagogis, or the Gnosis. It stands to reason that the Psûkhe could work differently.
I still don't believe that the Pragma could be sorcerers. Kellhus would see the Mark on them, which would compromise the whole point of the exercise.
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Maybe not a full blown sorcerer, but its probably extremely likely that nearly everyone within Ishual can see the Onta, or at least a much great proportion of them than in the greater world. Bakker mentions somewhere in an interview that the traits the dunyain have been selecting fore over the years inadvertently select for the Few as well.
So, maybe not sorcerers, but at least magically inclined.
Maybe this is the pollution that required death? Receiving the dreams visibly changed their Onta to the other Dunyain, and it was far to much of a distraction.
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Maybe not a full blown sorcerer, but its probably extremely likely that nearly everyone within Ishual can see the Onta, or at least a much great proportion of them than in the greater world. Bakker mentions somewhere in an interview that the traits the dunyain have been selecting fore over the years inadvertently select for the Few as well.
So, maybe not sorcerers, but at least magically inclined.
Maybe this is the pollution that required death? Receiving the dreams visibly changed their Onta to the other Dunyain, and it was far to much of a distraction.
This, definitely. The pollution was almost certainly, to me, not knowing of sorcery. It was the possibility of knowing sorcery, in the Biblical sense so-to-speak, and in so acquiring the Mark.
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Yes, they apprehend the Onta..... Hey, that's why we have the forums. To remind ourselves how very little we remember, :) thanks guys.
ETA: you guys make great counterpoints that suggest that the story Kellhus received is true or like a Dunyain a very good lie. These are the times I stop and take a deep breath and think we overthink these books entirely too much. But, what else is there to do while we wait for the UNHOLY?
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These are the times I stop and take a deep breath and think we overthink these books entirely too much. But, what else is there to do while we wait for the UNHOLY?
Nothing but obsess.
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These are the times I stop and take a deep breath and think we overthink these books entirely too much. But, what else is there to do while we wait for the UNHOLY?
I'll be honest, having been a part of a variety of different fandoms since I was a kid and had the internet (so around fifteen years), I've always thought the same thing. And while I do think it's somewhat true of TSA, it's also one of the very few fandoms in my experience that I think is actually centered around a work with enough depth and content to warrant such analysis.
Part of that is just the quality of works that attract any kind of persistent "fandom" at all -- in general, it's probably going to be something pretty accessible. And if it's pretty accessible, it probably lacks a huge amount of depth (that's not 100% true of course, nor is it a bad or good thing per se, merely an observation).