On TPB, was discussing this with 01, who asked why the Tekne couldn't be used to make super locusts or a biological plague.
Also, to add to that, how did they manage to make a skin-spy with a soul? By accident?
Why does the soul allow for the apprehension of paradox, and how was a skin-spy able to come to possess such a thing?
I suspect the Tekne can only make mockeries of creatures that are extant, or perhaps alter them (the Inchoroi themselves along with Wutteat). Somehow these mockeries end up lacking souls.
I assumed that the Consult had re-purposed one of the Mangaeca magi into a skin spy in order to make a skin spy with a soul, but it really isnt all that great of an assumption.
On the subject of a plague, didn't the No-God release some kind of horrific malady after he was killed by the Heron Spear?
As for the paradox, I may not be one for all that fancy pants logic and thinkenearing, but I kind of assumed that, despite all their animal cunning and single-mindedness,
Skin-Spies are rather dim creations, same with the Sranc. Men and Non-Men can understand a paradox as a paradox is a syntax error in language, so a en-souled being can
intuitively work around a paradox, but a Skin-Spy is a biological machine, programmed to be very good at what it does, driven and controlled by big pendulous boners, but beyond
its function a total moron. Maybe the Skin-Spy with a soul was the one Skin-Spy that the Consult was able to correctly wire its brain together.
Most Earwan animals don't have souls either. The tekne makes smart animals, basically. It's trick is being able to control instinct - the biological imperative - as though it were a rational decision.
I believe the thing that defines Bakker's souls is the fact that they can apprehend the logos. That is, they have the potential to master circumstance and break the tyranny of that which comes before, they have some sliver of free will, and I think that it is this ability that (to some extent) enables magic. After all, in the world of Earwa anything that transcends causality seems either thaumaturlogical or sorcerous.
Skin spies (for the most part) cannot apprehend the logos, as they are thoroughly enslaved.
The tekne is seemingly limited by the fact that it probably requires ensouled raw materials. The womb-plague seems like it was caused by gene therapy rather than a virus or bacteria. All the weapon races are created from base races with souls. The no-god is seemingly made using the soul stripping golden room. Even the incu-holonais seems to be some kind of biological perversion. So super aids and monster locusts are out by extension.
Or maybe the two remaining Inchoroi, in keeping with the idea that the Inchies have already lost much of their technology, where the Inchoroi equivalent of plastic surgeons in their past, and while aided by the Consult they might have made the No-God, when they're on their own, they're stuck making clever, horrifying perversions of nonmen and spies with faces made of fingers.
Incidentally, I wonder if the Inchoroi intentionally rigged the womb plague to kill, or if something about making people immortal in Earwa shatters the cycle of souls and lead to the womb plague. Obviously the Inchoroi were malicious in their intent, but that doesn't mean they did anything more than make people immortal and watch and wait for all the women to die.
Here's how I see it:
After the Ark crashed, and the Inchoroi lost several wars with the Nonmen, their technology was thoroughly exhausted. They spent most of the resources remaining on the ship finding a way to graft the Onta. So, while they initially had the capacity to build lasers and a virus that left the Nonmen barren, by the time we get to TSA, all they can do is an advanced form of selective breeding.
It's not like they can build a nuke with what they have left.Quote from: sciborgWhy does the soul allow for the apprehension of paradox, and how was a skin-spy able to come to possess such a thing?
No skin-spy possesses a soul. The skin spy in TWLW fails to answer Mimera's question correctly.
In Bakker's view, intelligent consciousness will always lead one to philosophical problems. Since 'intelligent consciousness' = 'soul' on Earwa, any being capable of grasping a philosophical paradox has a soul. Kellhus figures this out, somehow, and develops a simple diagnostic test for Skin Spies.
Quote from: JorgeNo skin-spy possesses a soul.
Not true, the skin spy posing as Akka's mandati handler (forget his name) has a soul and that is why he can use the gnosis; Maithanet explains it when he catches him in TTT.
In the appendix it is revealed that animals occasionally can be born with a soul as well.
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyerOn the subject of a plague, didn't the No-God release some kind of horrific malady after he was killed by the Heron Spear?
Indeed, sir. The Indigo Plague, it was called. The claim was it was due to ashes from the No-God's body swept up in the winds after Mengedda. But the Mandate says this is a load, he was recovered by the Consult, etc., etc. Either way, it was one of the worst in Earwa's history. So, make of that what you will.
Sounds like a plan B.
Basically the consult still want toys left after the door to damnation is closed. They are probably stuck in either making something that's not effective, or too effective (wipes out all the rape toys)
I don't believe the inchies could engineer diseases. The womb plague seems like an effect of the immortality treatment they administered. I tend towards the Indigo plague as some type of fallout. Being able to engineer a disease would just make things too easy for them.
Quote from: CurethanI don't believe the inchies could engineer diseases. The womb plague seems like an effect of the immortality treatment they administered. I tend towards the Indigo plague as some type of fallout. Being able to engineer a disease would just make things too easy for them.
We'll have to disagree that the womb plague was incidental to Inchoroi medicine. For mine, the womb plague served the Inchoroi ends in closing the world, and was likely intentional.
PS Please would you change your avatar? It's giving me the creeps.
Put me in the camp of people who think the Inchies fucked up. Now, I think they planned to eliminate the Nonmen (I also wonder if there were Nonmen who refused the treatment) but didn't want things to go south so quickly.
After all, the Inchies likely wanted to avoid fighting more than anything, given the reality of their damnation.
Quote from: anor277We'll have to disagree that the womb plague was incidental to Inchoroi medicine. For mine, the womb plague served the Inchoroi ends in closing the world, and was likely intentional.Not necessarily incidental, but rather administered directly (like the immortality nostrum) rather than as an infectious disease. I think the term 'plague' is misleading, especially seeing as 100% of nonwomen died.
If the tekne could engineer a virus that caused a specific malady amongst 100% of its targeted genus, all of their other measures were rather pointless, no?Quote from: anor277PS Please would you change your avatar? It's giving me the creeps.I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll go back to the wall of vaginas. Pictures of Bashrags are hard to find y'know.
Compared to engineering a multicellular organism, making a bioweapon is cake. I could make one that would devastate Earwa and its lack of antibiotics in my garage for a thousand dollars or so.
I'm going with the whole "The Inchoroi are stuck with legacy tech that they don't understand on any kind of fundamental level" line. Some machinery left on the Ark that allows, with what knowledge and infrastructure remains, for the relatively intuitive rearrangement of organs and tissues on a macro scale with major genetic or epigenetic changes being handled "under the hood" for the user.
Although Akka was quite disturbed by his discovery of the Skin Spies. Not just because they could be anywhere, but because they were new. Which hasn't happened since the Sranc and Bashrag. (The No-God seems to be a truly ancient plan possibly devised before their arrival on Earwa.)
It's possible that the Maengaecca have rediscovered the fundamental principles of the Tekne, or at least the biological side of it. If they have that...who knows what they could do?
All I know is that eating Sranc is probably a really bad idea.
As for the womb plague...it infected 100% of female nonmen with a 100% fatality rate, and either had a long but oddly synchronized incubation period or was triggered through some external mechanism. I really have trouble seeing that as anything but intentional.
Oh yeh, I think it was intentional too. The deal with Cujara Cinmoi gave the inchies the oportunity to move freely amongst the nonmen and administer their nostrums to all of them (men and women). The males got immortaility and the females all died...
There is no evidence of the Tekne being used to modify any species that didn't originally have a soul. Sranc from nonmen, bashrag and skin-spies from men, wracu from Wutteat (Dragons?). Even the synthese birds have man-heads.
So is it really bio-engineering as we know it or some form of physicalform or soul-engineering?
It seems likely that the inchies removed certain things like sympathy from their own make-up, perhaps using the inverse flame.
Skin spies etc seem to be 'programmed' by retaining certain emotional hungers and drives whilst removing the need for the part of the soul that connects them to the outside.
Certainly the inchies lost the knowledge of most of their tech after being almost wiped out by the non-men and its likely that they barely understood it when they landed/crashed on Earwa.
If I recall an interview with Bakker, they lost the touch with Tekne during the first brushups with the Nonmen or right after Sil died. At least, what he said made it seem that way.
On the note of the skin-spies and their relative modernity (Serwe II mentioned she'd been around two or more centuries), I hope we'll see some new creations in TUC and beyond!
Quote from: CurethanCertainly the inchies lost the knowledge of most of their tech after being almost wiped out by the non-men and its likely that they barely understood it when they landed/crashed on Earwa.
The latter half of that raises an interesting question, in my opinion, in that, we haven't any idea (unless of course I've missed hints in the text) of the Inchoroi's initial purpose. Is the Incu-Holionas a warship delivering conquerors, or a refugee ship fleeing something, or simply complete accident it crashed on Earwa?
I also can't help but wonder at the effect the Maengecca have had on the development of the Tekne. This idea only occurred to me as I was writing this so it might be easily dismissed, I can almost picture the Inchoroi having even less mastery of the Tekne in a post-first apocalypse Earwa than they did prior to it due to the influence of the Maengecca essentially hi-jacking it?
Side note: Might the Inchoroi's immortality technology be applied to humans? Could there possibly exist ancient Maengecca amongst the Consult? What advancements in the Gnosis might the thousand year old sorcerers have made? If so, there may be members among the Consult that possess sorcery approaching a Quya mage, making Kellhus' gambit for the support of Ishterbinth all the more essential. (I might just be spouting a poor crackpot theory though)
More questions than answers, but I guess that's how you get to the bottom of things
It's pretty explicit from the texts that Shauriatas is surviving Grandmaster of the Mengaecca from 1123 when the School is outlawed because "Shaeonanra, then Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, had discovered a catastrophic means to undo the scriptural damnation of sorcerers." (p.464, TTT LE)
Shaeonanra becomes known as Shauriatas, Cheater of the Gods, some four hundred years later.
Also, it's interesting to note that the Inchoroi themselves are responsible for the belief in the "scriptural damnation of sorcerers." And Nonmen, for that matter. Though the Judging Eye suggests that Achamian is damned - whether that is because of his sorcery or not, the text is ambiguous.
As to your interesting question, Camlost, in Dune:(click to show/hide)
As if the Tekne wasn't enough to contend with.. Madness, your post makes me fear for Kellhus' Ordeal all the more
sciborg2 has corrected me. In the interview with Pat:Quote from: R. Scott BakkerWhen the Inchoroi began using Men to master the Aporos and produce the first Chorae, they gave the first sorcery-destroying spheres to the Sranc, only to discover that the creatures were far too reckless. Having fixed and morbid habits of ornamentation, the Sranc rarely valued the spheres, and were thus prone to lose them.
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’
The Nonmen only rebuilt and reinforced the Gates after the first great migratory invasions generations later.
I still wonder...
The inchoroi were moribund and therefore unable to reproduce before they got to Earwa.
It seems likely that they sterilized themselves to achieve immortality and then discovered that did not assauge their impending damnation as revealed by the inverse fire (merely postponed it).
I think the inverse fire was a previous attempt to avoid damnation by removing the ability to judge themselves - but it only burns away the parts of your soul that allow exaltation/redemption.
Again, this is part of my reasoning behind the tekne being an iterative technology that works upon the mechanism of the flesh through how is connected to the soul (or the outside).
Not sure how it powers ray guns and space traveling cities though - obviously neither were the inchies by the time they hit Earwa. Given that the applications the consult have rediscovered also exclude them it may be that these tekne branches are only as closely related as laser technology and medicine in our science.
I think the Tekne is exactly what it appears to be. A "sorcery" of the material. The same thing that allows this forum to exist in the real world. Any bits of it that are powered by the Outside must have originated after the fall, due to Earwa's intimate and apparently unique connection.
I also think that th Inchoroi's sterility was itself an accident. I see them as a species that took a catastrophic fall down the slippery slope via self modification. Their sterility is simply a result of such a long and radical series of genetic alterations that their germ line is utterly nonviable. Aurang himself is apparently speckled with scattered tumors and cancerous growths from successive graftings over the millenia...which was after the fall, granted. The Inchoroi appear to have reproduced using their ship (Thus "Children of the Ark"), perhaps through some sort of cloning factory.
I also suspect that even before the fall the Inchoroi may have lost a deal of their understanding of the Tekne due to simple decadence and distraction. Their losses both from the impact, which apparently one in a hundred or so survives; and from the initial war with the Nonmen presumably culled most of the technically proficient members of their race. They may have exacted quite a toll on themselves in their mad scrabble to graft sorcery into their physiology as well. They "filled the pits of the aborted" or some such in the appendix. Lack of infrastructure, attrition, and their degenerate natures did for the rest.
That's a good summation of what I was trying to say. Although undoubtedly rooted in the mechanics of biology, the applications they have instituted since the fall all seem dependant on the materials modified having a soul.
Quote from: R. Scott BakkerThe Inchoroi only possessed the Tekne when they arrived in Eärwa. All of the Inchoroi are the products of successive Graftings, species-wide rewrites of their genotype, meant to enhance various abilities and capacities, such as the ability to elicit certain sexual responses from their victims (via pheromone locks), or the capacity to ‘tune sensations’ and so explore the vagaries and vicissitudes of carnal pleasure. The addition of anthropomorphic vocal apparatuses is perhaps the most famous of these enhancements.
The Grafting that produced Aurang and Aurax was also devised during the age-long C no-Inchoroi Wars, one of many failed attempts to biologically redesign themselves to overcome the Nonmen. But they had been outrun by their debauchery by this time, and had lost any comprehensive understanding of the Tekne. The Graftings had become a matter of guesswork, more likely to kill than enhance those who received them. The Inchoroi filled the Wells of the Aborted with their own in those days.
Aurang and Aurax are two of six who survived the attempt to Graft the ability to see the onta.
Check out the R. Scott Bakker Part 2 (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html), Sharmat as that is what you're quoting.
I agree with your description here, including the thoughts of reproducing using their ship. Though, I agree with Curethan that the Tekne seems to be biomolecular engineering with the technological know-how or ability to execute it. Perhaps, they had other "technological" knowledge as the Greek root suggests.
99% sure the inchies were moribund before they got to Earwa, can't remember if it's from the glossary or 'ask Bakker' forum on 3c's tho. That rules out the ark being a means of cloning or reproduction.
I think we've gotten that idea from the Dream in TTT where Seswatha references tales describing the Ark as "mothering or fathering" the Inchoroi.
I'm not sure about the logic of a huge symbiotic species evolving while just floating in the Void but they've clearly been to many worlds on the Ark. Plenty of time for them to go from being a reproductive species to moribund, through Grafts, etc.
I can't remember where I read this (but it was probably Three Seas), but Scott mentioned that a few Sranc and Skin Spies have souls. Essentially they are (baseline) very smart animals so a few exceptional individuals (Sranc and Skin Spy Isaac Newtons) will have capacity to possess souls. In the grand scheme of things, a few Srancs with souls really doesn't matter, but the one in a million Skin Spy can be taught sorcery and pass paradox tests.
Yep, I recall the same thing - I think from the glossary. The odd animal in the wild is ensouled too.
Quote from: Curethan99% sure the inchies were moribund before they got to Earwa, can't remember if it's from the glossary or 'ask Bakker' forum on 3c's tho. That rules out the ark being a means of cloning or reproduction.Where'd you pick this up? Aurang remembers himself as being "young" when the Ark was in orbit over Earwa, though I suppose that is a highly subjective term for an immortal race. Combined with the Inchoroi apparently describing themselves as the Children of the Arc and descriptions of the ship having once been walled in flesh, I suspect that it was the source of all newborn Inchoroi prior to impact, which destroyed most of the ship's reproductive organs.
Madness: We're not looking at natural selection, but intelligent design. The pacing will surely be a bit different. Though for all we know, they were mules even before the construction of the Ark.
An intelligent design that, judging by the pendulous-ness of their phalluses, was carried out by middle-school boys.
Or designed by sentient geese, elephant seals, bonobos...y'know, the really perverted rape-happy members of the animal kingdom.
I must wonder if there were ever any female Inchoroi, and if so, what happened to them...It's possible gender originally had no meaning for them. It's easy to imagine them grafting new sexual organs to themselves to be compatible with whatever organisms inhabited the world they were culling.
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyerI may not be one for all that fancy pants logic and thinkenearing
Thinkenearing is my new favorite word. Thank you BargiltheDestroyer, you made my day!
Quote from: The SharmatOr designed by sentient geese, elephant seals, bonobos...y'know, the really perverted rape-happy members of the animal kingdom.
I must wonder if there were ever any female Inchoroi, and if so, what happened to them...It's possible gender originally had no meaning for them. It's easy to imagine them grafting new sexual organs to themselves to be compatible with whatever organisms inhabited the world they were culling.
On Inchoroi gender, aye, that's basically what I've wondered: what was their original form. I guarantee what we see at the end of TWP and False Sun is not what those critters originally were. They've been to too many worlds and enjoy Grafting way too much to compete with the new environ and species they encounter.
I suspect the Ark is Female, and the Inchies are male. Their inability to understand human intimacy may stem from their species not having any real pair bonding (think Mieville's Kephri).
The Inchies themselves seem like a death metal loving one-handed typist fulfilling the fantasy of being a Ridley Scott xenomorph.
I suspect there's a "User Illusion" in the Ark as well, with Inchie Bros and their buddies possibly being good with the Tekne "API" rather than understanding the underlying "OS" of the Bios. So the really masters of the Tekne, the geneticists and biologists, died out and the Consult has spent their time trying to reproduce the prior expertise of vastly superior intelligences. Aurang and Aurax surviving likely has to do with their ability to apprehend the onta and utilize the Maganecca's cants [rather than anything to do with their intellectual prowess compared to others of their race].
I think sciborg pretty much has it and I wish to subscribe to his newsletter.
Yeah, I agree. It can't be a coincidence that the only two of the six that survived the grafting process to grasp the Onta are also the only two that made it through the Nonmen's last assault on the Ark.
Though that doesn't mean they're not quite intelligent. Difference between ignorance and stupidity and all.
Quote from: The SharmatThough that doesn't mean they're not quite intelligent. Difference between ignorance and stupidity and all.
Or Neil Degrass Tyson's fascinatingly disturbing thought: That chimps and humans are about 1% different as far as genes go, and the smartest chimp might be about as smart as a toddler. So take another 1% in that same direction and the most brilliant human could be no more than a child to an Inchi.
I think it's fairly obvious that the Inchoroi are written to be humanity's darkest impulses taken to the absolute extreme, and I also think it's fascinating/terrifying that it is all made possible by the Tekne. If a sentient race could biologically program themselves to feel ultimate pleasure all the time, it's not so farfetched that they would go down that dark road with little or no hesitation.
I remember reading a study about a doctor (http://www.paradise-engineering.com/brain/) who directly stimulated the pleasure center of his patient's brain to study its effects, and the guy was begging him not to stop the experiment. There are entire dimensions of pleasureful sensation that the engineering of brains and bodies could open up, and if by some miracle humanity ever progresses to the point where that kind of technology is cheap and widespread, I really don't want to see it. It gives me the willies.
Looking at that paradise-engineering site, I think we got our first Inchie contenders right there. Jesus.
Honestly I think I'll pass on that site link. Thats a bit to creepy, especially considering the topic at hand.
Inchies understand pair bonding. When they captured a human tribe for interrogation, they let families and loved ones rejoin, then killed anyone who was alone.
Quote from: Callan S.Inchies understand pair bonding. When they captured a human tribe for interrogation, they let families and loved ones rejoin, then killed anyone who was alone.
This specifically so they can torment the captured more profoundly by violating said loved ones.
They can understand pair bonding as a phenomena without experiencing it themselves. Humans understand migratory instincts, which we do not possess. On the reproductive scale, we understand asexual budding. Doesn't mean it's not entirely alien to our way of life.