The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: H on August 05, 2015, 08:21:00 pm
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So, I found this part again:
Occasionally, Cnaiür spoke to them, learned something of their lean ways. They called themselves the Last Children of the Inchoroi, though they were loath to speak of their “Old Fathers.” They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion. They never complained, save to say they hungered for unspeakable congress, or to insist they were falling—always falling. They declared he could trust them, because their Old Father had made them his slaves. They were, they said, dogs that would sooner starve than snap meat from a stranger’s hand.
They carried, Cnaiür could see, the spark of the void within them. Like the Sranc.
So, "Last Children of the Inchoroi" seems to mean that they are the last, or possibly meaning the latest, creation of the Tekne. We know that "Old Father" refers the Consult.
What I think is interesting is the idea that they are "Keepers of the Inverse Fire." Now, at first, reading that as Tenders of the Inverse Fire yields us nothing, only more questions. What I thought up, after ruminating on what we learn in False Sun and what Wutteät says about himself:
"IT IS MY CURSE TO BREATHE, SO LONG AS THE WORLD LIVES."
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"He dies from the outside," Cleric said, "because Hell sustains him from within."
"CUNNING..." the Wracu groaned out from the black. "CUNNING-CUNNING ISHROI!"
It is my theory that skin-spies, are Keepers, in the sense that they keep the Inverse Fire within themselves. In other words, the Inverse Fire is their substitute souls, that which animates them. Sranc and Bashrag are probably the same as well. This is why they can't even fathom what the Inverse Fire is either, how well can anyone describe their soul?
Last, is what is this part saying they only complain "to insist they were falling—always falling" actually telling us? Something about the nature of the Inverse Fire perhaps?
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Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle
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Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle
Indeed, I was thinking along those line, but failed to grasp it fully, thanks.
Also, it seems that skin-spies are immortal. Doppelgänger Serwë tells us she is at least 200 years old, chances are they are far older.
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I rarely do this anymore because many of you nuts get it into your heads that I'm playing some devious game whereas I'm really just weak and giving into my compulsions but, as the histories go, Skin-Spies are new artifacts of the Old Science. According to Achamian's POV in TDTCB, the Mandate only stopped warring openly with the Consult around three hundred years before the events in PON - major themes of TDTCB being: exactly how did the Consult accomplish this, are they still around and operating in the Three-Seas, how the absence of an enemy has made the Mandate a joke in the contemporary politics of the day, how the Mandate Schoolmen all feel the futility of their struggle and how each individually reconcile that dissonance with their experience of the Dreams.
Ergo, any given Skin-Spy can only be that old ;).
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Yes, probably much older than that though. Perhaps not as old as the First Apocalypse, but perhaps close?
Another interesting note, I picked up:
HOW
Roared through what passed for Maëngi’s soul.
I HATE
Shattering whatever thoughts, whatever passions he might call his own.
THIS WORLD.
Crushing even the unquenchable hunger, the all-encompassing ache . . .
Eyes like twin Nails of Heaven. Laughter, wild with a thousand years of madness.
SHOW ME, MAËNGI . . .
We know that skin-spies have no souls, the thing that replaced Soma having one was a true rarity. Therefor, what can we take "Roared through what passed for Maëngi’s soul" to mean? Also the fact that this 'roaring' is "shattering whatever thoughts, whatever passions he might call his own."
Well, I would present the idea that not only is the Inverse Fire used as an animator and a surrogate soul, but it is also a back-door, a root-kit of sorts, allowing Aurang & co. unfettered access and control over the creation in question. This would fuel the idea of mine as well, that the No-God (in part) was a wide-broadcast channel (or a link) of sorts, allowing access to all the Tekné things at once, rather than with directed focus. This is why Aurang calls himself "Horde-General to dread Mog-Pharau, Breaker of Worlds." It is Aurang who commands, through the network of IF 'souled' that are linked through the No-God.
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H I can see some merit in that argument but remember when the No God was free he spoke through the Sranc as one voice - I don't think anyone in the Consult holds the reins of the NoGod - its an equivalent to an A-Bomb, you just push the button and hope for the best!
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Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle
This is what I read it as too. Also, he's suspended in one of the Horns, maybe adding to the falling feeling.
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H I can see some merit in that argument but remember when the No God was free he spoke through the Sranc as one voice - I don't think anyone in the Consult holds the reins of the NoGod - its an equivalent to an A-Bomb, you just push the button and hope for the best!
I disagree completely though. I find no compelling reason to believe the No-God was willing or able to direct itself. In fact, the fact that it remained hidden for so long gives me the impression that it was not the 'uber-weapon' it's purported to be. If No-God has no idea of it's own nature, why hide then? Why didn't it travel with the Horde at every point? Fear of the Heron Spear? How might it be afraid of that, when it doesn't even know what it is? No, the Consult was afraid of the Heron Spear, so only 'unleashed' the No-God when there were no other options.
According to extant accounts, not once did the No-God expose himself to battle during this time. It was the years of attrition that forced him to intercede in the Battle of Mengedda.
The No-God is not what we are constantly lead to believe...
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I disagree completely though. I find no compelling reason to believe the No-God was willing or able to direct itself. In fact, the fact that it remained hidden for so long gives me the impression that it was not the 'uber-weapon' it's purported to be. If No-God has no idea of it's own nature, why hide then? Why didn't it travel with the Horde at every point? Fear of the Heron Spear? How might it be afraid of that, when it doesn't even know what it is? No, the Consult was afraid of the Heron Spear, so only 'unleashed' the No-God when there were no other options.
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The No-God is not what we are constantly lead to believe...
Also suggesting once again that there is a specific sorcerous connection with Mog, and his subsequent interaction/connection with its horde, that made taking Sakarpus/Atrithau impossible. Even if those two places made usuing sorcery impossible, if that was the only thing missing, the consult could still have easily affording piling up sranc bodies against the walls until the either got in or those inside simply died of starvation. The will of the No-God must have be able to be interrupted such that it could not tell/corce/compel the minions to do so.
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Also suggesting once again that there is a specific sorcerous connection with Mog, and his subsequent interaction/connection with its horde, that made taking Sakarpus/Atrithau impossible. Even if those two places made usuing sorcery impossible, if that was the only thing missing, the consult could still have easily affording piling up sranc bodies against the walls until the either got in or those inside simply died of starvation. The will of the No-God must have be able to be interrupted such that it could not tell/corce/compel the minions to do so.
There is also the option that without sorcery, it was just not worth it. Considering how the Consult were already being ground down, such a tactic would probably have been wasteful. Yet more proof, to me, that it was Aurang who was pulling the strings, not the No-God itself.
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I think that this thread will be about as much explanation that we'll get on the No-God. I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.
On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.
ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.
And I think this belongs in the No-God thread. Oh well.
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I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.
I'm with you there. The NG is pretty much a complete mystery to me. It would be best for my sanity to sit out these conversations, but I cant help myself it would seem ;)
On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.
ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.
I forgot about that bit, and I'm actually not sure how it impacts the nature of Mog's powers. Also, the scene is confusing and many assumptions need to be made to make it usable.
I guess that if it was the No-God, it opens up a whole lot of questions. It implies NG was not destroyed, but just dissipated. But how/where? If it communicates via sorcery of some kind, maybe this indicates that it is at least in part a sorcerous being, and indicates that the chorae in the carapace where being used to somehow limit/blind and/or bind it into some kind of corporeal form. If it exists in some kind of dissipated form that still had agency to reach out, why did it do so? What makes Kellhus, especially in TWP, worth reaching out to? That seems to imply that NG wasn't so much a prisoner of the carapace and that it wants to be re-awakened....
I have no answers :)
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I have no answers either. I just seem to think (and looking back at the thread this goes against H.) that if anything, the No-God is more than we're led to believe. Not just something that is at the disposal of The Consult. They may have summoned it, but, they have no control over it. Meaning while it was worldly thing during the First Apocalypse, it ran the show, whatever it is. I think now, its a confused entity on the Outside wanting back in the game. I don't know man, I'm just spitballing, and I really have no evidence other than Kellhus saying he spoke to the damn thing. I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.
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I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.
Haha, I like that for some reason. Makes me think of an actor stepping off stage and breaking character to throw out some moron from the audience. Once thats all cleaned up he'll hop back into character and go back to completing the Dunyain mission.
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Dissipated is interesting, it would square with the line of people and golden room. Perhaps the inchoroi are panning for gold and the no god is in all of us it takes thousands to filter out the necessary element and achieve a critical mass quantity. Aka summon him.
See also aengalus having a spark of the old fire, and kellhus explanation of people containing a pinprick of oversoul.
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I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.
Haha, I like that for some reason. Makes me think of an actor stepping off stage and breaking character to throw out some moron from the audience. Once thats all cleaned up he'll hop back into character and go back to completing the Dunyain mission.
I don't think of it quite like that. I guess this is where the TTT took Kellhus. Moe calls him crazy, but who knows. I know we don't know what Kellhus mission now really is. But, I believe he is gonna do what's best for mankind and that's why Moe thinks him crazy, he's developed emotions. All part of Ses's plan, lol.
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ook seems like Skin-spys can see chorae
when Miamara first does the nonman drug, her eye opens when she feels the drug kicking in
she see's the chorae as a "Tear of god" and asked Soma what he saw. he said " its you im having difficulty seeing with that thing pressed against your skin. you look like a breathing shadow."
he also calls it "a ball of shadow." and when she puts is away, he says "ahh much better."
Does he have a soul?
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We have talked about that before. The common consensus is that the Chorae is cancelling out the light from the Surrilic Point. Of course Soma could have a soul - we know ensoulled skin spies do exist even if they are a rarity.
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Beyond Simas in TTT, has there been a reference to another ensoule Skin Spy? At its unmasking, Maitha puts forth that it was "...an accident, and anamoly that, thankfully, it's architects have been unable to create."
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ook seems like Skin-spys can see chorae
when Miamara first does the nonman drug, her eye opens when she feels the drug kicking in
she see's the chorae as a "Tear of god" and asked Soma what he saw. he said " its you im having difficulty seeing with that thing pressed against your skin. you look like a breathing shadow."
he also calls it "a ball of shadow." and when she puts is away, he says "ahh much better."
Does he have a soul?
We have talked about that before. The common consensus is that the Chorae is cancelling out the light from the Surrilic Point. Of course Soma could have a soul - we know ensoulled skin spies do exist even if they are a rarity.
I'm with SR. The shadow effect is because the only light is sorcerous.
I don't think it has a soul.
Does not having a soul preclude you from seeing the Onta?
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I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy as part of the TTT to get the Mandate onside straight away when Maitha came to collect them so they could all meet up at Shimeh.
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I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.
If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.
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I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.
If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.
I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on. The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his. It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.
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I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.
If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.
I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on. The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his. It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.
Not saying I'm buying this, per se.
However, if we consider the "Meppa is a soul transfered Moe" (a pretty big if) then it might stand to reason that he would have experimented on something beforehand.
Definitely crack-pot, yet still plausible.
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Just to add, When we see the Demon Summoned By Ioykus point of view, we see that the Cish "flow of water" is directly connected to the soul because when it pulls on the thread the soul comes right out with it.
"The manling had no eyes, and yet saw ... saw as it did"
"The manling made a noise of terror, then unleashed his own light:a thread of raw energy. With one hand , Zioz grasped the thread, curious. when he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. the light vanished. the meat slapped the floor"
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I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on.
What we see is a primitive man with some iron tools in a cave, and you are suggesting that he managed to make the leap to futuristic power sources and gene manipulation. I think not. The skin-spies are Tekne, and no one but the Consult have that.
If you want psukhe magical skin-spies, fine. Just add it to the list of impossible things that the super-moenghus theory entails. But, why stop at these half baked skin-spy replicas? Whats the point of making spies with a weakness? Just make them have real faces that change with super secret, undetectable, undefeatable meta-psukhe.
And then, why bother having a war at all and risk losing? Just make an army of these flesh molders out of your army of Cisharuim and replace every single general, King, and advisor in every 3seas nation, then have them pledge fealty to the all powerful super-moenghus. While he's at it, why not do to all the schools as well. All hail mighty moenghus!
If Moenghus was so powerful, the story would have been about him taking the 3 seas and doing whatever it was he wanted to do with the Consult. But Moe died, and the story is about Kellhus.
The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations ... It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.
Moenghus tells us that Maitha is part of his plan. There is no mystery here
in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his.
??
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I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.
I'm not claiming a mystery.
Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.
This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.
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I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.
I'm not claiming a mystery.
Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.
This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.
I'll admit that Maithanet being there is highly suspect. Also, his reasoning, that "“We learned of this one through our interrogations of the others,” seems like a pretty thin 'excuse.' Why would your network of spies know where each other was? Even if you considered them 'undetectable' why you bother to inform them all? Especially since they have now started to be detected!
It's plausible that the explanation is that Moe somehow 'awakened' one of the skin-spies, then wiped it's memory and set it back out. The Consult probably viewed this as providence and set it loose into the Mandate.
I admit, this does seem a bit far-fetched. Then again, the idea that a skin-spy developed a soul on it's own seems even more far-fetched.
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We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.
I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?
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We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.
I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?
I'm not sure what you are getting at though?
That we shouldn't apply the logic that a spy network where all cells are informed of each other as implausible. Again, it isn't impossible, but it does seem impractical.
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I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.
I'm not claiming a mystery.
Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.
This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.
Ah. That makes way more sense. Converting one to his side or wiping memories, while likely extremely difficult, is not implausible.
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We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.
I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?
That's not where the assumption lies though. It lies in the ability of Moe to adapt it to work with skin spies in conjunction with his own magical abilities. They have brains that elicit responses when someone "brushes" their pins, we've seen this.
this all lies in the shadow of Moe still influencing the world. When he might just be mistaken and dead. The entire Mandate gets a soul "superimposed" over their own, which incidentally a Dunyain works out how to talk to and interact with.
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I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.
I'm not claiming a mystery.
Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.
This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.
Ah. That makes way more sense. Converting one to his side or wiping memories, while likely extremely difficult, is not implausible.
Yeah he's had years, although i've just realised who would have taught it the Gnosis? Only the Mandate or Consult know it. My own brain betraying my crackpot ideas.
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Arguably the Quorum don't ever go into the field and they likely seldom use Sorcery.
If you like, moenghus could have taught it some anagogics to bruise it up a bit and just hoped it never had to use sorcery whilst it was there.
I'd argue as well that the Consult's brand of Gnosis differs gently from the Mandate's and they may have suspected the skin-spy if it was seen doing sorceries, even if it was still gnostic cants/wards. The spy was at a great risk of being discovered but being within the Quorum was worth the risk.
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They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.
I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.
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They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.
I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.
i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation
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They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.
I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.
i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation
True, however, that would be very anti-climactic.
This will make the barest of sense, but I believe that for a skin-spy, the Inverse Fire is the a surrogate soul. I use soul as 'that which animates.' In other words, the Inverse Fire is what truly motivates a skin-spy. They can no more apprehend it's very nature than anyone else on Earwa can really apprehend their own soul though.
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They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.
I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.
i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation
True, however, that would be very anti-climactic.
This will make the barest of sense, but I believe that for a skin-spy, the Inverse Fire is the a surrogate soul. I use soul as 'that which animates.' In other words, the Inverse Fire is what truly motivates a skin-spy. They can no more apprehend it's very nature than anyone else on Earwa can really apprehend their own soul though.
would this make the IF a kind of agency???
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would this make the IF a kind of agency???
Well, actually, yes. It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.
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would this make the IF a kind of agency???
Well, actually, yes. It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.
Perhaps IF = mama Ark's soul?
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would this make the IF a kind of agency???
Well, actually, yes. It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.
Perhaps IF = mama Ark's soul?
Facinating. That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself. Or perhaps the Ark was the original thing powered by the IF.
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That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself.
Quick crackpot, mostly in tune with Bakker's nods to Tolkien.
Heron spear? Narsil. (i'm making a charge, lol)
Skin-spies and IF relations? Smeagorl and The One Ring.
ps Kellhus as Frodo? Oh, I like it. I really like it.
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on the subject of techne -- this is gross, but it would totally appeal to the Consult Way:
how do you make a Bashrag? you grow it inside a the womb of a human woman ... and it kills her coming out or something. and [something really twisted] until it is sent to Bashrag kindergarten
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That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself.
Quick crackpot, mostly in tune with Bakker's nods to Tolkien.
Heron spear? Narsil. (i'm making a charge, lol)
Skin-spies and IF relations? Smeagorl and The One Ring.
ps Kellhus as Frodo? Oh, I like it. I really like it.
Kellhus as Frodo?
So whose Sam and Gollum? :P
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I thought Akka was Frodo. Or maybe Mimara is Frodo. Or Sorweel is Frodo? Maybe everyone is Frodo?
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Kellhus as Frodo?
So whose Sam and Gollum? :P
You'll regret this question. :D
So, returning to that idea, I would make few assumptions to flesh it out:
1) The IF is the equivalent of the One Ring. A pinnacle of Inchoroi tekne, unrepeatable & irreplaceable. Here goes all that ideas about IF being the soul of the Arc etc.
2) Inchoroi race is equivalen of Sauron. Fallen angel with a mission of mass destruction and occasional seduction.
3) The IF was stolen by Ses & N-C during their stealth mission. That explains the especial hatred for that prisoner in the golden room and an importance of delivering him into Golgotterath alive. Also makes Heron Spear / Narsil a plot-decoy.
4) Skinspies face thing is their secondary property, first is a IF-detection abilities. Unknowingly to themselves they were netting Three Seas to locate a stolen property. So, they are actually Gollum (a wretched thing in love with the vessel of alien power).
5) Kellhus found IF in Ishual, where it was hidden for the last two thousand years, and plans to bring it back to the Arc. We know about indestructible nature of the Arc golden metal, so it sings good with the same tunes about dragon breath and mountain Doom fires as the only mean of melting OR.
6) So. Sam. Dependable, wise, enduring. I vote Proyas.
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It just struck me that Simas could have been replaced ages ago--like whoever is controlling Simas used Simas to mold young Akka way back when.
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It just struck me that Simas could have been replaced ages ago--like whoever is controlling Simas used Simas to mold young Akka way back when.
Yeah, in our re-read, I hypothesized that this could be the case, since replacement Simas knew of Inrau, which would seem to imply he had been a skin-spy for a long while...
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Sorry for the double post, but I had discussed, breifly, with Wilshire on the Quorum about a new Nerdanel I had about skin-spies.
For one thing, it goes back to the "“Something impossibly ancient,” the abomination said softly. “Inconceivably beautiful.”" quote, from Darkness. I still feel like this is a major clue that skin-spies are far older than we are lead to believe. Of course, there is the possibility that it refers only to it's own makers and not itself, in which case there is nothing more there, but what is the fun in that?
So, if skin-spies really are ancient then it would stand to reason that they might have been around in far antiquity. This could account for some of the fractiousness of Men during the Apocalypse. Think of this anecdote:
Then, in 2131, after a dispute with King Nimeric of Aörsi, Celmomas himself abandoned his own Holy War. The following year disaster struck. Consult legions, apparently utilizing a vast subterranean network of tunnels, appeared in the Ring Mountains to the rear of the Ordeal.
Highly convenient for the Consult that there, on the doorstep of victory, the Ordeal was sundered and so the Consult's victory was all-but assured. Sure, we are lead to believe that this was in the making the whole time, but it still smacks of something the Consult would most certainly be doing, finding preexisting wedges and driving them further home to assure the wanted result.
Nothing to really back this up, just a little idle speculation...
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Potentially the interaction with the Nonmen Emissary wanting to touch Kellhus to prove that he wasn't a Ciphrang replacement. Could be they attributed skin-spies to Ciphrang replacement, and they developed some way to feel them through a simple handshake.
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Potentially the interaction with the Nonmen Emissary wanting to touch Kellhus to prove that he wasn't a Ciphrang replacement. Could be they attributed skin-spies to Ciphrang replacement, and they developed some way to feel them through a simple handshake.
Yeah, forgot about that little bridge. There is also the idea that he wanted to touch Kellhus to possibly get an idea about his Nonman blood, if that is something they can do...
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If Moe is in the business of turning skin-spies then it must have been a pretty simple matter to dispatch 3 to have them collect Cnaiur and deliver him to Kyudea at teh appointed hour.
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If Moe is in the business of turning skin-spies then it must have been a pretty simple matter to dispatch 3 to have them collect Cnaiur and deliver him to Kyudea at teh appointed hour.
Then he sent for Aurang also. Remember, the bird was there the whole time too.
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If Moe is in the business of turning skin-spies then it must have been a pretty simple matter to dispatch 3 to have them collect Cnaiur and deliver him to Kyudea at teh appointed hour.
Then he sent for Aurang also. Remember, the bird was there the whole time too.
i was wondering about that. you are most probably right, the skin-spies are from Aurang and not Moe. buuuutttt... i can't remember Aurang being directly involved with the 3 skinspies that collect Cnaiur. what i mean is, the reader gets Aurang + skinspies + Cnaiur earlier, but later on it's just skinspies + Cnaiur. possibly different skinspies.
OR! Moe turns skinspies so that they still give the appearance of taking direction from Aurang. unlikely, i know