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Messages - Tyrin

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So Bakker just posted this response in the reddit AMA about 20 minutes ago:

[–]neonowain 3 points 2 hours ago*

Hello from Russia Scott! Thanks for your work. I believe you're the best writer in the genre now. I wanted to ask you one question. We know the fate of Shauriatis, but what about other Mangaecca schoolmen? Did they all perish in the first Apocalypse? Did they all fall victim to Shae's magic experiments? Or is the answer to this question a spoiler for the third series? (Sorry for my English)


[–]RScottBakker22AMA Author 2 points 24 minutes ago

Welcome Neonowain!

Do we know the fate of Shauriatis? The Mangaecca, on the other hand, died out a long time ago.

So he has either picked up on our grasping and is messing with us a little, or jurble's Shae-as-Mutilated theory is really onto something.

I second Ars Magica. Although I haven't played it personally, I've heard enough from friends to know that it seems like it would not necessarily be unsuitable for such things.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Music for TUC
« on: August 02, 2017, 01:42:22 am »

-But Shae is not an idiot in fact he has been shown to be very clever in the False Sun, and presumably after thousands of years of mental activity he would be even smarter.

Right. I mean, he and Aurang tricked and killed Titirga, who was basically the most powerful mage in history until Kellhus. (Kellhus is even directly compared to Titirga in TGO, iirc)

So that means someone had to have taught the Dunyain Mutilated sorcery.

That's the big question. Maybe a simple answer is that the Consult specifically sought out the Dunyain to capture/convert them to their cause, and settled on just taking a handful since taking all of Ishual would be much more risky/unpredictable. In that case everyone (except Shae possibly for reasons of pride/ego) is fine adding them to the cause since even if they "dominate", ultimately all of them are slaves to the Ark/No-God anyway, so it's basically a question of semantics.

On the other hand the specific assumption that seemed to trigger Bakker's reply that we've missed "something significant" seems to be the assumption that the Consult is severely undermanned and/or stupid. The reason I don't think the answer is as simple as hubris/arrogance is that it's too obvious and doesn't strike me as "significant", though my value judgment there is clearly subjective.

I think I found what Bakker was talking about:

I like this crackpot quite a lot, and would be happy if it was true.

In the event that it's not true, I've been trying to go over everything we know about the Consult's core members (since our apparent lack of understanding of their intellect/power seems to be the thing sparking Bakker's responses), though I haven't really come up with anything, and certainly nothing approaching "missing a certain boat" or not recognizing "something very significant".  If it's not the Shae thing, then I don't know what it could be.

Hahaha I came here to make this exact thread!

I've been trying to wrack my brain for possible answers but I remain perplexed. I'm going to reread relevant parts later to see if anything jumps out at me.

No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.

Yeah that seems to be the biggest thing that Ajokli (passively) did that Kellhus needed him to do.

That could have been accomplished just by striking a deal with Ajokli, for all we know.

Possibly, though my interpretation of the scene (which could definitely be wrong) was that the reason that Kellhus saw himself "descending as hunger" was because he was seeing himself as Ajokli. Maybe that's not the case, but I think that based on everything we've seen about the Inverse Fire, it's likely that if Kellhus without possession views the Inverse Fire, he becomes a slave to damnation-avoidance since literally no one else has ever viewed it and not done the same, including the other Dunyain. Of course maybe Kellhus is just unique in his immunity to it, but it's hard to rule out Ajokli's presence being the main force behind his inoculation to the IF.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity, interrupting Ajokli in the middle of his fight with the Dunsult and getting himself intentionally salted makes no sense to me.

He needed Ajokli to defeat the Consult

But Ajokli didn't defeat the Consult. In fact, if you assume Kellhus somehow orchestrated or knew about his own salting via chorae, then the Kelljokli scene makes absolutely no sense at all.

I mean, what did Ajokli accomplish? Killing one Dunyain and then allowing Kellhus to be salted? Kellhus could've managed to get himself salted quite trivially without Ajokli's intervention. The Kellhus-betraying-Ajokli interpretation only works if Ajokli actually accomplished something AND THEN was tricked by Kellhus. Since this didn't happen, we're basically left with two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.

Kellhus realized this and used it to his advantage

But what possible "advantage" was to be gained by letting himself get salted in that moment? In the moment when Ajokli is doing his God-power asskicking, which is presumably exactly what he was supposed to be doing in this moment, what possible benefit is to be gained by stopping all of that? Kellhus could've allowed himself to be salted at any time with no help from Ajokli, and since Ajokli didn't even accomplish anything during the possession, it just makes no sense that this was all somehow intentional on Kellhus' part.

I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up. I think we've just been conditioned to see Kellhus never making mistakes so that some among us (I'm pointing to eternal Kellhus apologists like you, MSJ :) ) find it very hard to seriously believe that he just plain fucked up.

Author Q&A / Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
« on: July 28, 2017, 07:17:00 pm »
Congrats on the book, Mr. Bakker! (and also, much thanks for writing a series that has brought me such entertainment!)

One question I've had since TJE was concerning the identity of "the traveler" that seeks out the Skin-eaters in the first few pages of the prologue. Is this traveler an agent of Kellhus, the Mutilated, or someone else entirely?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
« on: July 27, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation

It doesn't matter whether it's a "worthy" indicator, it only matters if it is true. And all evidence in the series point to it being the true objective indicator of who is damned and who is not.

The Anti hero is an existing trope.

Except Kellhus isn't an anti-hero, it turns out he's just a full-fledged villain in a world of villains. (Eternal Kellhus apologists might disagree but I think their position is a lot more untenable after TUC).
I mean even if you don't think Kellhus is basically the Big Bad of the series after TUC, then at least he is the "Unknown Bad", since we know that the Dunsult really do want to close the world to the outside, which would be a great thing for humanity even if you spend life being raped by Sranc, because at least you don't have a 99.9% chance to suffer even worse atrocities in the afterlife once the Outside is closed.

But the only thing we know about Kellhus is that he teamed up with Ajokli at the cost of untold thousands/millions of souls and allowing Ajokli to manifest in Earwa in some way through him(turning it into literal hellscape), and we're not even sure if Kellhus actually had some plan to close off the Outside instead of just being content to starve the other non-Ajokli gods.

For that reason I consider Kelljokli to be a far greater evil than the Consult, since the Consult's ends would at least help humanity to no longer suffer eternal damnation, while we don't really know what Kelljokli had planned beyond turning Earwa into Hell.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
« on: July 26, 2017, 12:55:01 pm »
"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree  :)

The Unholy Consult / Re: Who will die?
« on: May 26, 2017, 03:16:33 pm »
My sweet hero Shaeönanra will definitely not die.

Shae or Aurang dying would be too sad to bear.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Crazy speculation only
« on: May 19, 2017, 12:29:43 am »
Moe Younger : Dead
Akka: Alive
Mimara: Alive
Esmenet: Could go both ways for me
Proyas: Dead
Sorweel: Dead
Kayutas: Dead
Serwa: Alive
Kelmomas: Dead
Cnaiür: Alive
Kellhus: Dead
Meppa: Alive
Shae, Aurang and co: Alive

Change Esmenet's status to "dead" and this would be the happiest ending possible to me.

General Earwa / Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
« on: January 23, 2017, 10:46:34 am »
Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash?

What if the sole target of the nuke was not the Ordeal, but rather the Sranc horde as well?

Let's assume that indeed the hope of the Consult is to have the Ordeal arrive at Golgotterath half-dead and a shell of its peak strength. The Consult knows that a great "herding" of Sranc is going to happen at Dagliash. The Consult also knows of Kellhus' Niom and agreement with Ishterebinth to retake Dagliash, so they know that's where the Great Ordeal is headed. As others have pointed out,  the Bashrag with Chorae hiding underground were a fake trap intended to throw Kellhus off the scent of the nuke, but if our original premise is true, then the Consult doesn't even want to annihilate the Ordeal in one fell swoop with the nuke since they need their souls for the No-God. I think that the fake trap's actual purpose was to throw Kellhus off the scent of what the Consult actually wanted to happen: weaken the Ordeal but not greatly so, spare Kellhus, yet kill the entirety of the Horde. So the reasoning then is that the Consult knows that Kellhus never makes mistakes and everything always works out the way he intends, so him discovering the nuke doesn't affect the real purpose of it: not to kill Kellhus and all of his troops, but to weaken the Ordeal AND (the important part) simultaneously completely remove the massive pile of Sranc which is the only living thing that stands between the Ordeal and Golgotterath. Now all that is left for the Ordeal is to survive the march to Golgotterath.

So then if everything goes according to the Consult's plan (and possibly Kellhus' plan as well to some end), a half-dead, cannibalistic husk of the Ordeal arrives at Golgotterath to be easily wrangled up and tossed into No-God 2.0 by whatever remaining weapon race magic Aurax has figured out after all these years.

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