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Messages - Walter

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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: TGO Suicides
« on: June 27, 2016, 06:47:18 pm »
I feel as though Koringhus's suicide was a reaction to his understanding.

He is the last of the Dunyain.  The final Survivor of the halls.  Worthiest of a worthy line.  He matches gazes with a pregnant woman.  She is nothing.  He can see ten feet through her, and she's barely three feet deep.  He will make her love him, possess her and wring from her everything of worth.  And then...she comes before him.  Despite her total lack of training.  Despite the fact that thousands of years of atrocity didn't go into refining her, despite the fact that she doesn't deny every emotion, see everyone else as component urges...she effortlessly sounds his waters.  She states his thoughts without compunction or hesitation, even as he has them, EVEN AS HE SEES HER DO IT.  He is trumped on a level he doesn't even compete on.

The Dunyain are not only gone, they were stupid.  Grasp the absolute through knowledge? HA!  All they ever had to do was nothing.  But they sought relentlessly, damned themselves, warped their women into animals, their men into monsters...and FOR NOTHING.  Mimara transcends them without effort.

They sought to become the absolute, but never imagined that they might find the job taken.  So Koringhus, the last of the Dunyain, comes up against the Zero God.  Perfectly optimized search algorithm vs. just picking the right one first, every time.  His efforts are futile, and worse, his LIFE WAS ALWAYS leading to this.  What come after CAN determine what comes before.  He survived those halls, for nothing.  He has lied to his son every day of his life, for nothing.

He rationalizes killing himself as protecting them from his madness, as joining the absolute in death, as whatever you like.  I think he killed himself because he despaired.

Author Q&A / Different Analogies for different schools?
« on: June 27, 2016, 06:36:48 pm »
Somehow while reading the first series I got it into my head that the Imperial Saik used the setting sun as their main attack, while the Scarlet Spires used the dragonhead.  Is there any validity to that?  Basically, do each of the Anagogic schools have their own particular poetic devices that they use for doing things (none as deadly as the Gnosis's abstractions, but of greater or lesser potency to one another?)

Author Q&A / Anarcane ground?
« on: June 23, 2016, 07:02:12 pm »
So, it is mentioned at one point that Atrithau is raised on 'anarcane' ground. 

Obviously, that's a very interesting thing to ponder, given the metaphysics of what Sorcery seems to be.  So... I guess I'm just curious about what the deal is with this area.  Is it just that Sorcerers can't sing sorcery there, or are they driven out by pain similar to the ones they suffer around the Chorae Horde.  Can Consult creations (mostly Sranc I guess) go there?  It seems like it must ward them away for Atrithau to survive in the North until the modern day.  Was a Cishaurim ever observed trying to Sing around there?

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: The Parts Appalling
« on: June 23, 2016, 05:46:37 pm »
My read on the WLW's prophecied killing of Kellhus.

He first throws a Chorae, which misses, but destroys Kellhus's wards.
Then he throws a sword, which Kellhus deflects...except that doing so snaps it (because it was notched), and the broken part plunges into his heart.

Both of these throws are screen by the room's debris, but just happen to fly unimpeded through the tumbling stones, shielded by them from Kellhus's sight.

Obviously, this isn't how it goes down, but that's what I thought he was forseeing.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Aorsi/Dagliash
« on: June 23, 2016, 05:43:54 pm »
Yeah, doesn't it say that the NO-God did something to the Sranc such that they avoid the mark of Wreoleth?  I thought it was a race wide hardwire of their brains.  Demonstrates the awesome power of the NG pretty well that it is still in place all these years later, and even overpowers the central Srancish compulsions.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Momemn
« on: June 17, 2016, 08:14:14 pm »
"Just someone who was hear when it happened."


TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Ki√ľnnat and Zero
« on: June 17, 2016, 07:53:48 pm »
Crackpot theory time

It seems pretty clear that the Zero point or Zero God's reference to the No God is not coincidental.

So, say it's just played straight.  The Zero, the all reference point, is The God.  It is everything, unified.  The thing that fragmented, the entirety of existence.  The No-God is God-As-One.  The Sranc, with their brains that run entirely on instinct and have no cognition...they are its slaves because instinct is just the orders you get from the world.  The strings that pull on your cognition that you can't see, the play of the world on your brain, these come from the Darkness that comes before.  This Darkness is the Absolute is the No-God.

The Dunyain seek to be a self moving soul, but as Koringhus finds out, there is only room for one of those (All Absolutes are the same, no matter where you place the reference point it is still the origin.  Put the grid behind anyone's eyes you like, and it'll still be the center), and when he is measured against the all-knowing all-damning condemnation of the Judging Eye he falls far short.

The Judging Eye is the view from zero, the gaze of innocence, judging absolutely and without excuse.

The No-God cannot understand what it is, because the only thing that the origin point cannot see is itself.  The Darkness comes before everything, it has strings leading to every mind...except its own.  As far as it can tell, it doesn't exist.  It has no instincts leading to itself.  If cannot see itself with its Eye.  It sees a ruined world, but it's bloody hands are forever obscured from it.

So the Gods, Yatwer, Gilgaol, etc, are exactly as we've heard them described.  Big fragments of it.  All of the Birth-concepts stuck together.  They can't see it, because they are a portion of it.  Same reason that it can't see itself.  They see what comes after, but the No-God has already come before them.  They see calamity and blame what they can see, random people.

The souls which most resemble the No-God are those of infants.  Entirely innocent, possessing no volition.  That's why the Judging eye is housed in one.  That's why the No-God's manifestation stops people from being born.   When you incarnate it, all of the 'child-ness' goes to one place, instead of flowing to everyone's womb in time, all those souls go to the Whirlwind.

Perhaps the reason that the Inchoroi believe that they can end damnation is that the No-God is everything, and so by changing the world you can change it.  Kill enough people, and it loses its ability to blame and curse, to judge and damn.  They have harnessed the very measurement that damns them and forced it to war against its own ability to do so.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Kellhus
« on: June 17, 2016, 07:27:10 pm »

Like, I don't think he has anything to do with Ajokli.  He's just a dunyain murderer.  He buys into the Whiteluck's narindar disguise, and spends all of this time imagining him as the God of murder, but we've been inside of whiteluck's thoughts, and he belongs entirely to Yatwer.  What does Ajokli have to do with anything other than being Kelmo's obsession?  I mean, he's a shrewd child, but Kelmo doesn't have any whiteluck that we've ever seen.  He doesn't see infinite versions of himself, etc.


I kind of think that she's the head on the pole behind him.  Like, the critical moment when Kellhus stopped being a dunyain and became whatever he is now was when he got circumfexed.  I think that was the first time he went Outside.  The daemons couldn't kill him because he had a breathing body.  He remembered that by remembering that Serwe was on the pole behind him.  This is the earlier time that the ciphrangs are talking about when he goes out the second time to get the daemons heads.  The 'head on a pole' thing is like a mnemonic device he uses to remind himself that he is alive, he can't be Damned yet, they can't get him.  It is leftover from his visions while hanging.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Kellhus
« on: June 17, 2016, 01:17:48 pm »
I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Kellhus
« on: June 16, 2016, 05:18:12 pm »
So, Kellhus coming back to Momemn is extremely interesting to me.  Beyond that, the fact that he's still talking to Malo about treaties, and sending him to deal with Zeum's all seems to indicate that he is once again taking an interest in the New Empire.  Has he given up on the Ordeal?

Also, what broke the White Luck?  It seemed like it was Kelmomas's cry, but why would that do it?  Could it be because Yatwer can't see Samarmus in his mind?  Spitballing here.

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Crowdsourcing Errors/Corrections
« on: June 16, 2016, 01:52:51 pm »
Seems like:

Pg 329, extra 'had' right?  'Was this what HAD she had' should be 'Was this what she had'?
Pg 330, missing 'of the' 'And saw one the Tall' becomes 'And saw one of the Tall'?

TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Ishterebinth
« on: June 16, 2016, 01:41:12 pm »
I think she's doing sorcery at the end.  Kill them all with her metagnosis.  She's had plenty of chances to sing mundane songs.  They didn't convert the Lord Torturer and his goons, and with what we know about how the Dolor works, they couldn't.  Their past selves aren't something they can regain, any more than you can get back your fetus-form.  The backup plan if Ishterebinth is for the Consult is that that Serwa kills everyone.

Now, obviously, this wouldn't work aside from the lucky fact that Sorweel & his confederates have inspired a legendary hero to destroy the puppet king and remove the precauations that prevent her form using her power, but Kellhus has never shied away from a plan that relies on coincidence before.  The end of the Thousandfold Thought hinges on similar coincidences.  Absent Akka showing up and ripping apart the Kildruhil, allowing Saubon the opportunity to assassinate Conphas and take over his army the First Holy War and Kellhus are both obliterated by the Imperial Saik.

TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] Thoughts after finishing my ARC
« on: June 16, 2016, 01:26:30 pm »
Hoo boy.  Ok, here we go!

Final status on all characters:
Mimara and Akka -> wandering towards Golglutterath in order to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye
Kellhus -> Far away from Golglutterath, chilling in Momemn ordering the assassination of the Satakhan of Zeum
Proyas -> Commanding the healthy remnant of the Great Ordeal as it closes on Golglutterath
Cnaiur (!!!) -> Commanding all Scylvendi, in the service of the Consult
Sorweel/Serwa/Moen Jr. -> attempting to destroy Ishterebinth with the aid of one of the Tall
The Horde -> Mostly nuked
The Great Ordeal -> divided into radiation victims under Sibawul Vaka/some other king and healthy folks under Proya
The Consult -> infuriatingly mysterious still
Esmenet/Kelmonas/White Luck/ Meppa -> Big cliffhanger in Momemn, not quite sure what's up with any of them

My favorite sequences:
Little Kel watching the Whiteluck
Mimara and the last Dunyain's staring/revelation contest
Devolution of the Ordeal once they started eating the Meat, parallel with Proyas's anguish after Kellhus rapes him
The Tall hero rising up and striking down the puppet king in Ishterebinth
Kellhus dropping Psatma from the sky

Wtf moments!
Kellhus approving of the nuke destroying Saubon and a big part of the Ordeal
Saubon being the dead version of himself he clasped on the Battleplain
Kellhus beheading and reheading Malobwepi, using him to assassinate the Satakhan
Cnaiur is alive?!
Aurax noping out when confronted by Saccarees
The Survivor killing himself
Esmenet taking on Fanayal/Meppa
Inriliatus made Thelliopa ???
Vaka and co. spending a night in the Consult's larder and emerging as Sranc-banes
Little Kel somehow breaking the WhiteLuck prophecy, or whatever happens at the end of the Momemn arc.
Esmenet crushed (did that really happen?  Or was this a "Harweel torn in half" esque feint)
Inside out prophets, that show the world to the God rather than vice versa
Akka's dreams show that the Prophecy was literally made about Kellhus  (Lots of mentions of time being folded, all of this has happened before, etc.)

I ebayed an ARC and have read it!  Please uplift me to the secret forum!

Question:  How does the White-Luck, work, for want of a better term?  It seems like he lives a destined life.  Everything that happens is what needs to happen such that he brings about Yatwer's chosen future.  All well and good.  But Kellhus insists that the Hundred are blind to sentience without soul.  If that's the case, they shouldn't see Sranc, etc.  But those have a big impact on the world.  So how can the Hundred simultaneously grasp the world's happenings well enough to steer/aim the White-Luck, but not well enough to understand what's up with Kellhus/the No-God?

It seems like setting Kellhus up to get stabbed in the heart by White-Luck's sword due to it shattering requires perfect understanding of where/when Kellhus will be, and exactly what he's going to be doing, but knowing that would entail knowing about the Consult.  I feel like I'm missing something fundamental about how the Hundred operate.

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