[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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False Man

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« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2017, 08:45:33 pm »
I don't think you have to be invisible to the Gods to activate the No-God.
The first time it happened because they put Nau-Cayuti in It (or so it seems) so maybe you just have to be very powerful or special (Nau-Cayuti infiltrated the Ark, killed a Dragon, he was a certified badass).

Heavenfall

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« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2017, 08:53:30 pm »
I don't think you have to be invisible to the Gods to activate the No-God.
The first time it happened because they put Nau-Cayuti in It (or so it seems) so maybe you just have to be very powerful or special (Nau-Cayuti infiltrated the Ark, killed a Dragon, he was a certified badass).

I think people are saying it's the other way around. He would eventually become the No-god and therefore through some kind of time paradox he was *always* invisible to the gods, backwards in time as well. Basically it was his destiny.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2017, 09:05:46 pm »
Was Nau-Cayuti invisible to the Gods? Celmomas mentions seeing him, at his death, I think riding with Ajokli and the Gods?

MSJ

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« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2017, 10:37:01 pm »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2017, 11:59:02 pm »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.

Head-in-a-Book

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« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2017, 12:02:32 am »
So first up my overall impression on reading the ending, then some thoughts and questions on What .The. F*@K. Just. Happened?

I’ve been reading these books for the best part of a decade now and I’ve got to say I totally loved how the Aspect-Emperor sequence ended. Loved, loved, loved it! Brutal. Dark. Bleak. Brilliant.

How many decades long series have you invested yourself in, for the final book to build to a momentous finale where it appears the bad guys will win only for the Farm-boy-Come-Warrior-Sorcerer to pull off a masterstroke in the final pages to turn the tide and save the world. I know I’ve read a few and they never really satisfy.

Enter Scott “Not on my watch” Bakker! It was deeply satisfying to read a series where the bad guys actual won and it wasn’t through some secret weapon or power suddenly revealed in the final pages. It was through a long and deliberate strategy executed in the background – but hinted subtly throughout. Totally brilliant and I can’t think of another series I’ve read that has come close to pulling something like this off (maybe Erikkson’s The Crippled God, but that was more of a “the bad guys is really just a bit misunderstood, let’s help him on his way” sort of ending).

The Next Sequence.

So we’ve known for a while from RSB this sequence can’t be named until the Aspect-Emperor sequence was finished as it forms a massive spoiler. Given that and early release reviews of TUC saying it ended in a massive cliff-hanger I had started to suspect the No-God would be resurrected and my guess is that final sequence itself is simply going to be titled “The No-God”. It has a certain symmetry to it as well: “Prince of Nothing”, “Aspect Emperor”, “The No-God” – Prince/Emperor/(No)God.

As I read the TUC early on I started to think the ending would involve Kellhus saving the world from the Consult only to voluntarily step into the Carapace on the last line of the book to become the No-God. Close, but no cigar!

Achamian’s Dreams.

Apart from leading him to Ishuäl, Achamian’s “non-standard” Mandati dreams had hinted, if not spelled out by the end of TGO, just who was inside the No-God’s Carapace – Nau-Cayûti Anasûrimbor, plucked from what the rest of the world though was his coffin by the Consult, only to be entombed within the Carapace to awaken the No-God. Whilst this was not explicitly shown in the dreams I felt it was where they were going and what they were showing Achamian – an Anasûrimbor had awoken the No-God. The timeline in the TTFT’s encyclopaedia backed this up – roughly a few years after Nau-Cayûti’s “death”, the No-God was resurrected. So, given that Kellhus’ ancestor (direct ancestor? Or does Kellhus’ line descend from a sibling?) awoke the No-God, it seemed likely he would be required to resurrect it.

We never did learn explicitly where Achamian’s new dreams came from, but I do wonder, could it have been the Consult themselves? Specifically, the Mutilated. We know they not only have mastered the Tekne but they can also use sorcery. Like Mohengius before them who sent dreams to his brethren to start the whole thing rolling back in TDTCB, could it be the Mutilated themselves sending the dreams to Achamian? As to why and to what end, those are really good questions yet to be resolved I think!

Kellhus.

To me the overarching theme for me in reading the Aspect Emperor sequence was: Just What The Hell (pun not intended at the time!) is Kellhus up to? Unlike the Prince of Nothing sequence, where we had numerous chapters written from Kellhus’ POV, we had virtually no insights into his thought process in the Aspect Emperor. Clearly this was a deliberate literally decision as RSB wanted us thinking about what Kellhus’ endgame was. Is he in league with the Consult as Mohengius foretold would be the shortest path, or had he found some other way to avoid damnation? Achamian and Mimara’s storyline was essentially to discover this answer and they fall agonisingly short of finding the answer (Mimara’s Judging Eye refusing to open on the rare occasions she glimpses Kellhus in TUC). The rare Kellhus POV we got was in TGO – his Head on a Stick chapter and a reread makes a lot more sense now. He strikes a bargain with Hell itself to save himself (at the cost of the world) from damnation. He will not join the Consult or become the No-God but is his alternative any better for mankind? Arguably not.

The Consult.

Which brings me to the Consult themselves. I was initially disappointed at discovering the Consult had been subverted by the Mutilated but the more I think about it, the more obvious and fitting it seems. As Kellhus himself articulates – it’s a natural extrapolation of events should the Consult find and capture the Dûnyain and indeed is fortold by Mohengius himself as one logical outcome of the TTFT.

Kellhus mentions he suspected this outcome but Daglish confirmed it. I do wonder what about Daglish and the a-bomb shouted “Dûnyain” to him? Perhaps it’s the fact that the original Consult of Men-Nonmen-Inchori lacked the capability to come up with such a direct attack? Would it not have been simpler years ago to smuggle an atomic bomb into Shimeh and press “go”? Could it be that the use of such a weapon is not something the original Consult had considered but to the Dûnyain it’s simply “the shortest path”?

Given the Mutilated have been guiding the Consult for most (all?) of the Aspect Emperor’s timeline, further questions abound as to what the Shortest Path bid them to do differently.

The Resumption.

The book ends with Kelmomas becoming the No-God instead of Kellhus. Did. Not. See. That. Coming! Well, I had a vague suspicion start to from mid-way through the finale – “hey where is Kelmomas, didn’t he free himself? What is he up to?” and then in that final sequence, so caught up in reading the narrative at break-neck pace, I nearly missed it … “a little boy threading the spaces between” .. suddenly, with that sentence you knew the ending you thought was unfolding just got totally flipped.

In reflecting on this ending I wonder how much of it was “conditioned ground” of the Mutilated. How much of this had the Consult planned? Those Kelmomas chapters right back to chapter 1 of The Judging Eye are going to require some very careful re-reading! Could it be the inner voice of Kelmomas is not his twin Samarmas (real or mad imaginations) but the Consult all along? How much of his storyline will reveal the Consult’s machinations all along?

EDIT: have since re-read those Kelmomas POV chapters. That inner voice is DEFINITELY the Mutilated. Re-read the chapter between Kelmomas and Inrilatas, the inner voice provides extremely unusual insights into how Inrilatas is conditioning Kelmomas… Dûnyain like insights one would say… hmmm…

One point of confusion with the Consult’s No-God strategy is how it fits with the insights we gained during their POV chapters in The Prince of Nothing sequence… they were sure they were mere years away from the resumption. Yet, the appearance of Kellhus amongst the Holy War took them by surprise. How then were they intending to awaken the No-God? Given a millennia of feeding random souls to it the first time around had failed? Confused.

The No-God.

Some interesting theories in here about just what happened when Kellhus floats down to the Ordealmen in apparent victory and then transforms into the No-God upon Minama’s Judging Eye gazing upon it. I could go with either theory – time certainly is not presented in a linear manner in those chapters. The stillbirth of the second twin would indicate the “awakening” of the No-God yet no sense of “boding” is felt by the ordeal, that’s the one inconsistency that others point out, I can’t reconcile.

The scene where the No-God talks to Minama is totally bad ass! What do you see…. WHAT AM I? Made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

Thinking further about this scene. Since midway through the WLW I had interpreted the No-God’s booming “WHAT DO YOU SEE. WHAT AM I” as proof that Nau-Cayûti is trapped within. However, what if this scene in the TUC is not an echo of this, but perhaps the origin? There are many theories that the No-God exists outside of time and what if all those encounters with the No-God in the first apocalypse – WHAT AM I – is a backward echo in time of this particular scene? Heavy stuff.

MSJ

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« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2017, 12:05:04 am »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2017, 12:12:38 am »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2017, 12:26:21 am »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.

Wishful thinking. ;)

Real talk: I still have to mull over a lot of stuff here and do my own full unpacking of my thoughts, but regarding this specific issue, my inclination (and it's just an inclination) now is that Kellhus is still the one pulling the strings. My interpretation of Kellhus as a character is that of a trickster-hero, and that he's also a merging of traditional Western and Eastern mythological hero-cycle archetypes.

I also still have a long-held suspicion that "Samarmas" (or the voice we heard as Samarmas) is actually Kellhus -- meaning he actually is, in fact, the No-God. But at this point I really have no damn clue.

So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.

But do you discount the notion that Kellhus actually did make a pact with the Pit, as he said? Making a deal with the Devil for unfathomable -- but worldly -- power.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 12:32:30 am by The Meta-Mod »

locke

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« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2017, 12:40:57 am »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.

Wishful thinking. ;)

Real talk: I still have to mull over a lot of stuff here and do my own full unpacking of my thoughts, but regarding this specific issue, my inclination (and it's just an inclination) now is that Kellhus is still the one pulling the strings. My interpretation of Kellhus as a character is that of a trickster-hero, and that he's also a merging of traditional Western and Eastern mythological hero-cycle archetypes.

I also still have a long-held suspicion that "Samarmas" (or the voice we heard as Samarmas) is actually Kellhus -- meaning he actually is, in fact, the No-God. But at this point I really have no damn clue.

So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.


What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.

But do you discount the notion that Kellhus actually did make a pact with the Pit, as he said? Making a deal with the Devil for unfathomable -- but worldly -- power.


I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.

Because this is such a PROFOUND violation of narrative norms, the entire internet is trying to reassert Kellhus to his rightful place of mastery and victory that all uber-mensch farmboys are always already entitled to.  Readership is CONDITIONED to expect that violations of norms are actually a reassertion of those norms, from a certain point of view. I'm saying Kellhus has failed, and he is supper in the outside. All his worldly power, and mastery, and planning were all for naught, they just amplified the degree of his failure.

What is this entire narrative without Kellhus in control?

As for the pact with the pit. Why would such a bargain ever be enforced.


locke

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« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2017, 12:51:41 am »
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.
No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2017, 01:10:08 am »
(click to show/hide)
But nooo, there was a cherry on that cake!
(click to show/hide)
Awesome bit.

MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2017, 02:10:08 am »
The problem with the Ajokli harvesting Kellhus narrative is that Kellhus sees his future when he looks into the inverse fire.  He responds to Merk that where the Nonman is fodder, Kellhus sees himself descending as hunger.  So at the very least, Kellhus is a Ciphrang.  Cnaiur is described by the Judging Eye as a Prince of Hell so Kellhus would be something even greater.

MSJ

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« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2017, 03:25:20 am »
The problem with the Ajokli harvesting Kellhus narrative is that Kellhus sees his future when he looks into the inverse fire.  He responds to Merk that where the Nonman is fodder, Kellhus sees himself descending as hunger.  So at the very least, Kellhus is a Ciphrang.  Cnaiur is described by the Judging Eye as a Prince of Hell so Kellhus would be something even greater.

I was thinking the same thing. I just have a problem wondering how Kellhus planned on dying or what have you if Kel doesn't pop up. What I mean, he defeats the Consult, carapice destroyed, then what? Because, I'm pretty sure Kel wasn't part of the plan.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2017, 05:11:40 am »
Great analysis guys, and some really nice first posts. (welcome new guys!)

But, like, is no-one going to mention Cnaiur ascending as Ajokli and walking into the whirlwind? That was awesome!

Here's the way I see that scene fitting in;

Khellus has cut a deal with Ajokli. From what he says, he isn't damned (because Ajokli is going to exalt him after his death and the Inverse Flame should reveal if this is true), in return Ajokli will deal with the consult via Topos shenanigans. Ajokli substitues in via switching heads with the other decpitant - Kellhus does that while everyone was looking at the Inverse Flame (shades of 'heart in the butt' here for those that remember that cracked pot).

Ajokli promptly tries to betray Kellhus by cutting a deal with the mutilated instead, enter Kelmomas as contingency while they keep Ajokli gloating and twirling his moustachios and POOF Khellus is salt and Ajokli gets dispelled.

Side note: This is weird. We have been told by Bakker salting severity depends with the depth of the Mark and in TTT we see a ciphrang hit by a chorae and it explodes into salt. Implication seems to be that Khellus is toast. However...

Then we cut to Cnaiur who's just outmaneuvered the Consult by being a treacherous psycho. He sees Kellhus has screwed up everything and goes super-ciphrang! We've been primed by the judging eye to know his soul will become a ciphrang in the outside ... but then he manifests in the material plane just as Mimara saw him with the JE. But then we see he bears the notorious FOUR HORNS. The Prince of Hate, Ajokli, born at the end of time, after the No-god has resumed? Fucking blow out if that is accurate, because it reveals so much about the Hundred. But that is a debatable interpretation, I guess.

The main alternative I can think of is that Ajokli is seizing Cnaiur, but either way he seems unaware of where Kellhus is. He should be in Hell because he died before the No-god resumes?

Anyway, cool scene. What do others think?

Bonus crackpot: The third series is Malowebi and Kellhus stuck bodyless in the last decapitant, and their comical adventures trying to get Malowebi's body back.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 05:16:13 am by Cüréthañ »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.