[TUC Spoilers] Timeline question

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Walter

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« on: July 13, 2017, 02:29:35 pm »
Just to make sure I have this right...

The Consult was subverted by the Dunyain between the series, right?  Sometime after TTT, before TGO?  Just want to make sure there is no chance that Moengus the elder heard about them from the skin spies he interrogated.

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 02:36:58 pm »
Just to make sure I have this right...

The Consult was subverted by the Dunyain between the series, right?  Sometime after TTT, before TGO?  Just want to make sure there is no chance that Moengus the elder heard about them from the skin spies he interrogated.
That sounds correct. THere might be a more precise date somewhere, but just on the face of it: at the end of TWP the Consult was looking for the Dunyain. TTT was not a long book, and Moenghus had been torturing the skin spy(ies) in the pit for years, learning how to get information from them. So even if they did find Ishual and start hunting Dunyainm the captured skin spies wouldnt have known about it. He would have had to have found a skin spy that was aware of the happenings up north but was, for some reason, located in Shimeh, then captured it and somehow learned that information in a short time before Kellhus showed up at his door.

So logically it seems to me extremely unlikely that he could have known about the demise of Ishual from skin spies, regardless of the actual date the assault began.

edit:
oops, as H mentions, then you add 4+ years for the whole invasion, plus time to get back to Golgotterath, then I'd assume at least a couple years for subverting the Consult entirely. You're looking at several years after TTT at the earliest.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:48:45 pm by Wilshire »
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H

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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 02:45:42 pm »
I think also during TWP is when they learn of that Kellhus is a Dûnyain and there really isn't all that much time between then and TTT.

The DûnSult boyz mention how it took about four and a half years to clear out Ishuäl, which means even if they assaulted it right after TWP, there was no way it was pre-TTT.
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 02:53:45 pm »
I think also during TWP is when they learn of that Kellhus is a Dûnyain and there really isn't all that much time between then and TTT.

Initially, they don't even know what a Dunyain is. Cue the highly traumatic epilogue of the second book, where they're trying to find an answer to that very question.

It's curious actually, how they managed to find Ishual. My bet is, they connected the dots and realized Anasurimbor Kellhus must be descended from the old Anasurimbors that opposed them, and that they must've hidden out somewhere; so the rest is about going through old records and chronicles to find out about Ishual. If Achamian could do it, so could they.

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 02:59:44 pm »
I think also during TWP is when they learn of that Kellhus is a Dûnyain and there really isn't all that much time between then and TTT.

Initially, they don't even know what a Dunyain is. Cue the highly traumatic epilogue of the second book, where they're trying to find an answer to that very question.

It's curious actually, how they managed to find Ishual. My bet is, they connected the dots and realized Anasurimbor Kellhus must be descended from the old Anasurimbors that opposed them, and that they must've hidden out somewhere; so the rest is about going through old records and chronicles to find out about Ishual. If Achamian could do it, so could they.
My guess is one or both of the Inchoroi Brothers just started flying around - figured that the Dunyain had to exist in a substantial enough population that they'd see it with a fly over. If they started by spiraling/grid-searching out from Golgotterath, it wouldn't have taken long. Not to mention, it couldn't exist where there was heavy sranc infestation, which removes huge swaths of land - really limits to, apparently, the north east, and mountain ranges not near coastlines.
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Hiro

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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 03:42:31 pm »
I think also during TWP is when they learn of that Kellhus is a Dûnyain and there really isn't all that much time between then and TTT.

Initially, they don't even know what a Dunyain is. Cue the highly traumatic epilogue of the second book, where they're trying to find an answer to that very question.

It's curious actually, how they managed to find Ishual. My bet is, they connected the dots and realized Anasurimbor Kellhus must be descended from the old Anasurimbors that opposed them, and that they must've hidden out somewhere; so the rest is about going through old records and chronicles to find out about Ishual. If Achamian could do it, so could they.
My guess is one or both of the Inchoroi Brothers just started flying around - figured that the Dunyain had to exist in a substantial enough population that they'd see it with a fly over. If they started by spiraling/grid-searching out from Golgotterath, it wouldn't have taken long. Not to mention, it couldn't exist where there was heavy sranc infestation, which removes huge swaths of land - really limits to, apparently, the north east, and mountain ranges not near coastlines.

Something like that, yeah. The crucial point for the demise of Ishual was learning of its existence. From that moment on, it was only a matter of time.
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Walter

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 04:10:23 pm »
I think Kellhus even mentions that to the Mutilated.  He's like "Once they knew that we existed it was only a matter of time until they found it", or something similar.

Ishual's only protection was that you can't raise walls vs what you've forgotten.

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 04:26:59 pm »
I think Kellhus even mentions that to the Mutilated.  He's like "Once they knew that we existed it was only a matter of time until they found it", or something similar.

Ishual's only protection was that you can't raise walls vs what you've forgotten.

Heck, it's even possible that knowing of some secret place in a general area could have jogged some Nonman Erratic's memory into recalling the place.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 06:41:35 pm »
The DûnSult boyz mention how it took about four and a half years to clear out Ishuäl, which means even if they assaulted it right after TWP, there was no way it was pre-TTT.

The assault has to have finished at some point after the crab-handed boy was born - otherwise he wouldn't have been born at all (the whale mothers would be dead), and the boy realistically has to be born before the Consult get to the Whale Mothers room and kill the Whale Mothers.  I don't think it's ever stated how old the boy is, but we do know he's a boy and not an adolescent (let's say under 12).  If we assume at the latest that he was born halfway through the attack, then at the earliest the attack began approx. 14 years before TUC and ended approx. 10 years before.  If the boy is younger than 12, then the numbers reduce.
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 07:15:15 pm »
The DûnSult boyz mention how it took about four and a half years to clear out Ishuäl, which means even if they assaulted it right after TWP, there was no way it was pre-TTT.

The assault has to have finished at some point after the crab-handed boy was born - otherwise he wouldn't have been born at all (the whale mothers would be dead), and the boy realistically has to be born before the Consult get to the Whale Mothers room and kill the Whale Mothers.  I don't think it's ever stated how old the boy is, but we do know he's a boy and not an adolescent (let's say under 12).  If we assume at the latest that he was born halfway through the attack, then at the earliest the attack began approx. 14 years before TUC and ended approx. 10 years before.  If the boy is younger than 12, then the numbers reduce.

The boy was still in the crib when Koringhus spirited him away, by the way, so presumably, the Consult got to the breeding room just after he was born

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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 02:04:02 pm »
Not really on point since I think consensus has been reached but Koringhus does recall that the Dunyain actually held the walls against the Sranc until they were beaten back and then the Consult Quya came. The Boy could have been born, even sired, during or after that initial timeframe of Sranc-only assaults.
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 08:58:16 pm »
Maybe I've got this completely wrong, I finished TUC last night in a frenzy.

Were the Mutilated prisoners taken from the initial assault on Ishual who then subverted the Consult from inside.

Or did they join before and assist in clearing Ishual out?

My guy is saying the former.

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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 09:40:02 pm »
Maybe I've got this completely wrong, I finished TUC last night in a frenzy.

Were the Mutilated prisoners taken from the initial assault on Ishual who then subverted the Consult from inside.

Or did they join before and assist in clearing Ishual out?

My guy is saying the former.

I believe they were taken prisoner by the Consult during the attack on Ishuäl, yes.
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