[TUC Spoilers] The Seven Revelations of SuJuroit (Kellhus and Ajokli)

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Walter

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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2017, 05:43:50 pm »
An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:

People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods.  (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form.  He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli.  Ajokli can't find him because he IS him.  He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 05:48:43 pm »
Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.

An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:

People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods.  (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form.  He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli.  Ajokli can't find him because he IS him.  He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.
That would make sense except while Kellhus seems merely to channel Ajokli in the golden room, Cnaiür actually becomes Ajokli at the very end. I think Cnaiür is larval Ajokli. Kellhus was just instrumental in his temporal creation of himself. Not sure if that's always how it happens though, or if this kind of apotheosis is unique toe Ajokli.

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2017, 05:53:34 pm »
Great post SuJuroit. Welcome to the forum
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Baztek

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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2017, 06:00:23 pm »
Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.

An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:

People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods.  (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form.  He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli.  Ajokli can't find him because he IS him.  He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.
That would make sense except while Kellhus seems merely to channel Ajokli in the golden room, Cnaiür actually becomes Ajokli at the very end. I think Cnaiür is larval Ajokli. Kellhus was just instrumental in his temporal creation of himself. Not sure if that's always how it happens though, or if this kind of apotheosis is unique toe Ajokli.

It makes sense Cnauir is larval Ajokli but dude would never make a pact with the sole reason for his hatred, eternal being or no. Or maybe he needs to to bootstrap himself into existence? I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2017, 06:04:03 pm »
I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.
Completely off topic, but this makes me feel I'm using the right forum!

SuJuroit

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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 06:10:19 pm »
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Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.

I got more of a, "Son I am disappoint." vibe from their meeting, but it's a fair point.  But just look at how each successive generation of Anasurimbor treated their children who didn't meet spec.  Moenghus drowned them.  Kellhus locked Inrilatas up, but let him live, presumably for the sake of Esmenet.  And Koringhus took immense personal risks to save the life of his son and bring him up, even though the boy was defective.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2017, 06:24:51 pm »
It makes sense Cnauir is larval Ajokli but dude would never make a pact with the sole reason for his hatred, eternal being or no. Or maybe he needs to to bootstrap himself into existence? I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.
I'd argue it's a combination of needing to bootstrap himself into existence (ironically meaning he needs Moenghus and then Kellhus to torment his original self) and not really caring about Kellhus's life that much when he can possibly get his soul instead.

Quote
Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.

I got more of a, "Son I am disappoint." vibe from their meeting, but it's a fair point.  But just look at how each successive generation of Anasurimbor treated their children who didn't meet spec.  Moenghus drowned them.  Kellhus locked Inrilatas up, but let him live, presumably for the sake of Esmenet.  And Koringhus took immense personal risks to save the life of his son and bring him up, even though the boy was defective.
That's a very good point. Dunyain seem to have some unfortunate issues with their breeding program.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 06:29:04 pm »
Good post.

I too believe that the start of Ajokli-Kellhus "partnership" is the Circumfixion. The halos start to manifest (as false light) short time later (in TTT if I remember well).

I agree with this idea, but the halos had been manifesting before the Circumfixion. If I remember correctly, Serwë started seeing halos on Kellhus late in TDTCB/early in TWP.
Though you might have meant that the halos had started to manifest in a way most people could see (and not just Serwë) post-Circumfixion, in which case I'm sorry for the nitpick.

The Kellhus/Ajokli connection has definitely been there since PON - there is a Conphas quote in TTT (I think) about Kellhus being "a venerable Ajokli" (or close to that, I need to look it up).
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 06:46:01 pm »
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Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.

One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.

Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 06:50:06 pm »
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Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.

One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.

Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.

We already know that's impossible from the very existence of the Gods in the first place. They always-already are what they are, we have to get out of the habit of thinking these things temporally, as if Kellhus can now go to the Outside and start working his magic. If Kellhus had conquered the Outside, there wouldn't be any soul-munching to speak of, it always happened.

Unless we hit some random year and poof, damnation never existed, all this shit never existed, and Earwa is thoroughly disenchanted.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 07:19:35 pm »
The Outside isn't permanently closed yet but it is at least jammed.

Quote
Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.

One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.

Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.

We already know that's impossible from the very existence of the Gods in the first place. They always-already are what they are, we have to get out of the habit of thinking these things temporally, as if Kellhus can now go to the Outside and start working his magic. If Kellhus had conquered the Outside, there wouldn't be any soul-munching to speak of, it always happened.

Unless we hit some random year and poof, damnation never existed, all this shit never existed, and Earwa is thoroughly disenchanted.
Well, or alternatively, for the sake of argument, Kellhus doesn't care about damnation for everyone else. Or even wants it.

Walter

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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 07:21:11 pm »
Remember Kellhus quote about the Gods and how the No-God is mucking with history.

The Gods and their agents inhabit a world where they are doomed to succeed (WLW, since the Gods are atemporal), then transition without noticing to one where they were always doomed to fail when the No-God thwarts them.

It isn't that the existence of atemporal beings denies free will, it is that free will (in the form of the nondeterministic No-God and its slaves) transforms those eternal beings, makes them over again every time they interact.

The Ajokli who possessed Kellhus did so from beyond history, in a world in which he had/would always possess Kellhus and plunder the Granary.  The one that possess Cnaiur is a DIFFERENT AJOKLI, made over along with the remainder of the Outside by Resumption.  His rage is Cnaiur's rage, Esmenet's rage...the homicidal outrage of the victim, the desperate search for the one accountable, doomed forever to failure.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 07:23:05 pm »
The new Ajokli that always was. Lovely.

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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 07:25:58 pm »
That's a very good point. Dunyain seem to have some unfortunate issues with their breeding program.

Not least of which it, if indirectly, rendered them Damned ;).
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 07:34:36 pm »
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Well, or alternatively, for the sake of argument, Kellhus doesn't care about damnation for everyone else. Or even wants it.

RSB's comparison of Kellhus to Sorweel under the Amiolas might be meaningful here.  Sorweel started out hating Kellhus, then was convinced by the Amiolas that Kellhus was on the side of right and good, then wound up being subverted by Yatwer and died trying to kill Kellhus.

Perhaps Kellhus initially was repulsed by the Consult and truly intended to stop their evil ways but was gradually suborned by Ajokli without his full knowledge or control.  Perhaps by the very end he was no more in control than Sorweel was in the moments before his death.  Just a puppet for who knows how long, right up until Ajokli took over in truth.

Quote
It isn't that the existence of atemporal beings denies free will, it is that free will (in the form of the nondeterministic No-God and its slaves) transforms those eternal beings, makes them over again every time they interact.

Great point.