[TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam

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themerchant

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« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2017, 09:35:00 pm »
I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

MSJ

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« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2017, 09:36:49 pm »
Blackstone, what up my friend? Nice to see you around here again. To your point on how Kel ends up in the Golden room. Well, a Skin-Spy who looked like Esme came to him and took him to the throne room, i thought this obvious.

tleilaxu, DEM= dues ex machina
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Blackstone

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« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2017, 09:38:32 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2017, 09:38:43 pm »
Ah, that was kinda obvious in hindsight... Thanks.

Blackstone

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« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2017, 09:42:37 pm »
Blackstone, what up my friend? Nice to see you around here again. To your point on how Kel ends up in the Golden room. Well, a Skin-Spy who looked like Esme came to him and took him to the throne room, i thought this obvious.

tleilaxu, DEM= dues ex machina
Hey, buddy!

Yeah, I am sure that's how it happened. The fact that it all happened off screen seems a little weak, but that's not the point. His appearance at the end to defeat Kellhus is what could be considered DEM. I'm not sure it bothers me, but I think that's what it could most accurately be described as.

Ah, that was kinda obvious in hindsight... Thanks.
You non-Americans and your hatred of acronyms ;)
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codebread

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« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2017, 09:43:47 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina

Edit: Ha, I just realized I was a page behind. I thought your response was the last one in the thread! Ah well. Now you can be super sure about what DEM Means.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 10:16:24 pm by codebread »

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2017, 09:45:29 pm »
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

themerchant

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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2017, 09:47:19 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.





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« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2017, 09:51:58 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.

I don't know that there was a debate on how he got there. I just saw some people pondering it, and that seems the most probable way for him to get there. That's why I say, that's probably how he got there. My issue was the way that he just disappeared in the chapter where he meets the skin spy, and reappears just in time to foil Kellhus's master plan.

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?
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themerchant

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« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2017, 09:56:41 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.

I don't know that there was a debate on how he got there. I just saw some people pondering it, and that seems the most probable way for him to get there. That's why I say, that's probably how he got there. My issue was the way that he just disappeared in the chapter where he meets the skin spy, and reappears just in time to foil Kellhus's master plan.

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

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« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2017, 10:01:36 pm »

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

Ah. Just one of those things we can only speculate about:)
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themerchant

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« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2017, 10:03:33 pm »

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

Ah. Just one of those things we can only speculate about:)

Yeah Kel was probably already detained by the Dunyain but ajokili incapacitated all the skinspies which meant Kelemonas could then stroll into the golden room.

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« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2017, 10:10:12 pm »
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

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« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2017, 11:56:39 pm »
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

It could be. It's just something to speculate about, and I don't particularly like the need to speculate on a TON of things at the conclusion of a series, and I feel like that's what I'm left with. It feels like Robert Jordan-esque shit.
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themerchant

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« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2017, 12:39:12 am »
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.