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Messages - Monkhound

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« on: January 20, 2022, 07:07:43 pm »
TTT starts with full force in the quote and the Dream where Mekeritrig tortures Seswatha:
Quote from: chapter 1
"To understand the soul of a Nonman, the philosopher Gotagga had once written, one need only bare the back of an old and arrogant slave. Scars. Scars upon scars. This was what made them mad. All of them."
"I will strip you to your footings", the Nonman grated. "Though I love,  I will upend your souls foundation! I will release you from the delusions of this word 'Man', and draw forth the beat - the soulless beast! - that is the howling Truth of all things..."
First the parallel with Cnaiür's scars and madness, of course. With that, does it somewhat insinuate that killing chips away at your sanity?
Secondly the illustration that if you take away one's humanity, a human is no different from a sranc?

The first passage that Esmenet reads from the Sagas. I'm pretty sure that I remember it being sung by the Nonman on the elevator in Ishterebinth, in TGO:
Quote from: chapter 8
"Rage - Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of foods,
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Sing us the end of your song. "

Conphas thinking before being brutalized by Cnaiür:
Quote from: chapter 9
"Where the Nansur wheedled and negotiated, the Scylvendi simply took - seized. It was as though they had embraced violence as a whole, while the Nansur had shattered it into a thousand pieces to set as splinters across the multiform mosaic of their society.
It made them seem... more manly."
Again, the shattering of a "one into thousand" symbolism.

Quote from: chapter 12
"Only when things were broken did their meaning become clear. "
This one struck me particularly with respect to the whole brutality that is inflicted on the Scalded in TUC.
At the same time, do I note aparallel between "meaning" and "Truth" in this? Both concepts are flung around a lot in this book. Only when a Truth or a meaning is broken, do we understand what it actually meant.

About chapter 15:
The tunnels under Kyudea and Ishuäl are referred to as similar in architecture, and then as Nonman work.
For Kyudea it is confirmed to be Nonman architecture. I can't remember: Do we know this to be the case for Ishuäl as well?
Is the whole Sorweel in the Ishterebinth underground meant to help understand the whole Dunyain journey here, with both Kellhus and the Siqu looking for their father?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« on: December 13, 2021, 10:17:40 am »
I'm not a slow reader but still it took a while to get through TWP again due to life getting in the way  :)

Chapter 6 had some funky references during the Battle of Mengedda:
Quote from: Chapter 6
Now the wind came from the east, and men swore they could smell the sea.
Mengedda being quite far inland, it gave me a flashbacks to the Battle of Dagliash, though that could be because of the "Saubon dying" passage in the same chapter.

Quote from: Chapter 6
And when the day is done,
In our eyes the Gods shall lurk!
These two lines of the chant that the Inrithi sing during the battle struck me as a weird parallel to the "What do you see?" passages that we get from Akka's dreams by the thousands of sranc. The parallel being "After we have killed, the (No-)God will be able to see what we have done (and reward us?)".

Another passage that especially struck me was the one in chapter 17. where Kellhus finally breaks Esmenet, using a repetition of words that we encounter later in TGO in the passage of Koringhus's "cuts and cuts and cuts" revelation:
Quote from: Chapter 17,  The words in bold are mine
"You break and remake, cut and cut and cut, all so you might answer in you conqueror's tongue!"
"And you tell yourself", Kellhus continued, "'These tracks I will not follow!', Perhaps you refuse certain perversity. You pretend to scruple, to discriminate, though the world has forced you onto trackless ground."
"'What love lies beyond sacrifice?'"

Though worded slightly different, I encountered the same explanation a few chapters later, when Cnaïur finally understands how Moënghus and Kellhus have controlled him all along:
Quote from: Chapter 24,  The words in bold are mine
He was bound to the Dûnyain as the Dûnyain was bound to Serwë's corpse - bound by the cutting ropes of an unconquerable hate.
Any shame. Any indignity. He would bear any injury, commit any atrocity, to whet his vengeance. He would see the whole world burn before he would surrender his hate. Hate!
Hatred, and hatred alone, had kept him sane.
Just like Esmenet, Cnaiür has been chipping/ cutting away at himself to fit his view on the world, and to soothe his own mind. In the case of Cnaiür, these cuts seem to be both physical and mental, with him scarring himself with his swazond to pove the point of his hatred... Which in turn gives an extra dimension to Mimara's Judging Eye vision about him later in TGO. I'm currently under the impression that, especially given how we see Kellhus's deduction at work, the Dûyain see the cuts that people made in reverse, since we get a similar deduction described again when Koringhus has his Zero-God revelation.

With the knowledge of the description of Saubon's death in TGO, there is the fun passage in TWP where he calls for his own damnation:
Quote from: Chapter
[Saubon:] "Then fie on it! Fie on the truth!"
[Kellhus:] "And what of your immortal soul?"
"Then let it be damned!" he roared, leaping to his feet. "I embrace it - embace it all! Damnation in this life! Damnation in all others! Torment heaped upon torment! I would bear all to be King for a day! I would see you broken and blooded if that meant I could own this throne! I would see the God's own eyes plucked out!

Finally, chapter 23 has the passage where Kellhus has his revelation:
Quote from: Chapter 23
And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright.
The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.
I remember a similar passage (in TGO, I think? Or maybe in TWLW) where Kellhus encounters people with animal features. Did we get an explanation about that somewhere, or is it simply his madness that is leaking through?

I know there are supposed to be parallels between TPN and TAE, and I'm still amazed at how Bakker pulled it off  ;D.

Going to pick up TTT again next of course, and I'll share the things that stood out to me, with the knowledge of how TAE ends.

The Unholy Consult / Rereading again, new insights again
« on: September 02, 2021, 07:41:03 am »
It's been a while since I visited here, but you know... You reread PON for the so-manyeth time and you're inexorably drawn back to this Place, since everytime there are new insights, and new things that stand out. This time is the first one since finishing TUC a few years back though. A passage in Chapter 12 related to Cnaiür remembering his youth after capturing Kellhus, struck me as interesting:

The revelation was as breathtaking as it was heartbreaking. Once, when Cnaüir was a child, a whirlwind had roared through the Utemot encampment, its shoulders in the clouds, yaksh, cattle, and lives swirling like skirts about its feet. He had watched it from a distance, wailing, clutching his father’s rigid waist. Then it had vanished, like sand settling in water. He could remember his father running through the hail to assist his kinsmen. He could remember beginning to follow, then stumbling to a halt, transfixed by the vista before him as though the scale of the transformation had dwarfed his eyes’ ability to believe. The great rambling web of tracks, pens, and yaksh had been utterly rewritten, as though some mountain-tall child had drawn sweeping circles with a stick. Horror had replaced familiarity, but order had replaced order.

Like the whirlwind, his revelation regarding Moenghus had blasted a different, far more horrifying order from what he had known. Triumph became degradation. Pride became remorse.

The passage continues referring to the whole whirlwind theme that fits Cnaiür's fear (PON) and vengeance (TUC). This is especially awesome when you keep in mind that Bakker mentioned Cnaiür walking into the whirlwind at the end being THE image he had in mind all along for the end of the series (Can't find that specific quote anymore though  :-\).

Another thing that I found interesting, were the similarities and continuity between PON Chapter 17 and the whole chapter 14 of TGO, where the Survivor has his insights (the "Cuts and cuts and cuts" chapter): It's the chapter where you have both the whole showdown between the great names and the emperor, the unmasking of Skeaös, and Kellhus's intruction by the pragma. Ever since reading it, I've been of a mind that the TGO chapter was key for understanding some major elements of the book. But together with the PON chapter, I think it explains exactly what has been going through Kellhus's mind ever since he was hung from the tree in Caraskand (so in TWP). It's still heavy stuff; I'm still trying to decipher it and share what I get, but I'll get to that when I reach the passages during the reread of the series ^^.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Subject and Object Ruminations
« on: July 23, 2018, 04:27:44 pm »
profgrape [10|Jul 09:37 am]:   Z = M*Z
profgrape [10|Jul 09:38 am]:   Not a measure but an operator
profgrape [10|Jul 09:38 am]:   Transforming all frames to zero

I like the whole discussion dump, but this analogy best. Nice one, and food for thought  :D

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
« on: March 21, 2018, 04:00:29 pm »
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both Cnaiür and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
« on: March 15, 2018, 06:30:59 pm »
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).

I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why Cnaüir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.

It would also make sense of the remark that Bakker was'nt sure at the end of TTT if the final aspect dominating Kellhus (can't find the right wording...) would be Gilgaöl or Ajokli, as Cnaiür is both a personification of War and of and Hatred (sry, I can't remember exactly where I read that which I'm quoting).

In addition it would make sense of Cnaïur's obsession with defeating Kellhus: During PON Cnaïur is often described watching/ observing Kellhus for the slightest moment Kellhus would lower his guard/ moment of weakness. This patient waiting could be described as a form not of trickery,  but cunning...

The Unholy Consult / Re: Kellhus, Kelmomas and the Narindar
« on: February 07, 2018, 04:20:11 pm »
I think Momas was going after Ajokli here. Ajokli was probably the only God who sensed something was wrong due to the Ark being located in the deepest topos.

Indeed. As far as my reading goes, the Gods were hunting Ajokli the whole time (or at least going after Kellhus to stop Ajokli making his play through him).

Yet Kellhus is not in Momemn when the gods strike, which is why I think they target Kelmomas, through an updated vision of their reality, which coincides with prophetic forms becoming impossible.
Also: could it be that the Celmomian Prophecy was true at the time of the death of Celmomas, but that it changed offer time without Seswatha "sending updates" via the Dreams?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Kellhus, Kelmomas and the Narindar
« on: November 04, 2017, 07:47:47 pm »
A slightly different angle I got thinking about last week: In the first three books of TAE we get the perception explained that, from all of the active POV, the gods are hunting Kellhus. Esmenet even grows to perceive that the gods are hunting her whole family, trying to get to Kellhus. Yet barely any of the attention of the agents of the gods is actually directly targeted at him. In text, we actually only see Sorweel directly target Kellhus. The gross of the attention is focused on Momemn (invasion, earthquake, assassins).

What we do get though, is the description in TWL that both Inrilatas and Maithanet see what Kelmomas is.
At the same time, we now know that Kellhus is now salted, and no longer visible for Ajokli and (by extension) the other gods. The gods, seeing all time at the same time, therefore have always seen Kellhus, and therefore have maybe not been targeting him all along. Notice that if they had, they could (and probably would) have before, for example during the First Holy War, or during most of the Unification Wars.

At the same time, we get no mentions of the gods acting against Kellhus and his progeny until the flashback in Shigek at the beginning of TJE. I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't check the date of the chapter, but I'm going to assume this corresponds to the birth of Kelmomas and Samarmas, or  possibly the moment Kel and Sami get separated.

The idea I got was that the gods know that something is wrong without knowing exactly what, but that the disturbance is located in Momemn. That's the reason why Yatwer and Momas target Momemn (and not whereverthe Ordeal is at the time), first accidentally hitting Thelliopa, and nearly killing both Kellhus and Kelmomas.

Any thoughts?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Why Kelmomas?
« on: September 13, 2017, 02:59:12 pm »
Plausible.  However, he is "in there" somewhere?  I guess we can ask, as NG 1.0, who is asking "WHAT DO YOU SEE?"  Is it the apparatus itself?  I think probably would be Nau-Cayuti.

Just as circuitry in, say, a car has no idea what it is doing, I doubt if the soul that completes the Sarcophagus' function is aware of what it is doing.  Obviously, electrical circuits are always unaware, but a soul, shorn of the body and so of it's identity and perceptual capacity, ends up in nearly the same place.  The difference, of course, as the NG 1.0 demonstrates, is that the insertant retains (or gains, depending on how you want to approach it) the awareness of being unaware.  Not only that, but seemingly also retains the feeling, or perhaps knowledge, that something isn't quite right about this state.

In how far does this relate to the situation of both the Wathi doll (TWP) and Malowebi, I wonder? The situation is not exactly the same, of course, but there is the similarity that in all three cases the soul has been wrenched from the body and jammed into something else to fulfil a new purpose (to be turned into a tool).
Malowebi we get a clear view of what he can see and sense, but his purpose is still unclear.
In addition, the "making of a Wathi doll" process was explained in TGO, as far as I recall.
Any ideas?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Psalm of Imimorûl
« on: September 11, 2017, 06:01:57 am »
Wow... lol... xD

The Crabikiad / Re: What's the story!?
« on: September 09, 2017, 05:36:54 pm »
I'm not sure, but I also sense a parallel coming relating to Oinaral Lastborn. Not sure if it's The Boy who's going to get that story, or Akka's and Mim's son.

The Unholy Consult / Re: (TUC spoilers) Esme, what makes her so important
« on: September 06, 2017, 04:10:43 pm »
The original Prophet that brought Man into Earwa had a wife named Esmenet.

And not to forget Akka's mentioning it being such an odd name for a whore somewhere in PoN... or something the like.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Psalm of Imimorûl
« on: September 04, 2017, 04:05:59 pm »
For similar Creation analogies you also have the Greek mythology (first the Creation, then later Prometheus stealing the Fire), God creating humanity according to Genesis or other cabalistic traditions, the Sumerian tradition, and most certainly a myriad of other versions. Most rely on being created from clay and recieving a divine impulse through either a pièce of the divine (either physical piece, or a breath).
 And let's also not forget Aulë creating the dwarves in the Silmarillion (I believe: created from stone, under the largest mountains?).

Why the use of the word "hair"? Possibly just because we read Sorweel's interpretation of the text?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
« on: September 01, 2017, 03:20:25 pm »
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.

Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgaöl in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.

The Unholy Consult / Re: We Are Proyas
« on: August 29, 2017, 06:07:30 am »
Exactly. Just as he probably foresaw some people breathing a sigh of relief in the face of a Consult victory, he foresaw others making angry forum posts about it.
More about the abruptness of the ending and lack of clarity about who's right and who's wrong, I think.

As had been discussed earlier both on TSA and confirmed by Bakker, there is no-one right or wrong, which is part of the beauty of the whole: There are only gray areas, just as these exist in our everyday perception, just add there always exists a different perception of real life events, no matter how big or puny these are. That goes both for the characters and for our interpretation. We're left to decide for ourselves about the good and the bad, or preferably who we deem "most moral", if we need to.

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