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The Heart

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H:

--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 05, 2018, 10:54:20 pm ---Emilidis seemed to have despised the Amiolas, so I don't think he would have placed his own soul in any of his other artifacts. We never know, though...


--- Quote from: TGO, Chapter 9 ---"Emilidis abhorred all his miraculous works," the Nonman finally said, "but none so much as the Amiolas. He made certain that no one could forget its nature."
--- End quote ---

Not even just the Amiolas, all of them, apparently! Which is intriguing, to say the least.
--- End quote ---

Hmm, makes me wonder, if he hated them all, then made the Amiolas so that no one could forget what made it what it is, then did all the rest have the same sort of cost?  In other words, were all his "miraculous" works made from trapping souls or somehow otherwise exploiting them?  Perhaps this is what made his works different?  He learned to forge things imbued with souls...

ThoughtsOfThelli:

--- Quote from: H on June 06, 2018, 11:21:56 am ---Hmm, makes me wonder, if he hated them all, then made the Amiolas so that no one could forget what made it what it is, then did all the rest have the same sort of cost?  In other words, were all his "miraculous" works made from trapping souls or somehow otherwise exploiting them?  Perhaps this is what made his works different?  He learned to forge things imbued with souls...

--- End quote ---

That's a likely possibility. With that in mind, other passages about Emilidis become even more interesting on a second (or third, etc.) read:


--- Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Amiolas" ---The genius of Emilidis was primarily metaphysical: he grasped the continuity of meaning and souls, how a sorcerous understanding of Ihrimsû entailed a sorcerous unification of disparate souls. Inventing new forms of sorcery as he proceeded, Emilidis imbued his helm with the soul of Immiriccas Cinialrig, the infamous Malcontent, an Injori Ishroi condemned to die by Cû'jara Cinmoi, and given the choice by Nil'giccas between risking the Hells or dwelling forever as an amputated, interpreting soul.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Emilidis" ---His greatest works, or Sublime Contrivances, exhibit miraculous reworkings of nature itself, be it the twisting of down sideways with the Immaculate Rim (Orimuril), or the spawning of day (as opposed to merely light) with the Diurnal, or the recombination of souls with the Amiolas. Though other Contrivers have managed to create artifacts immune to Chorae, Emilidis is unparalleled in that all his creations, from the merest dagger to the famed Day Lantern, exhibit such immunity. Mandate scholars cite this as why Nil'giccas charged him with raising the Barricades high upon the Upright Horn--what would prove to be his final, and most tragically flawed, work. The Legendary Artisan retreated from both the World and the historical record after this, admitting only private petitioners to his Foundry in the Qûlnimil.
--- End quote ---

There are many things that could be discussed here, but for now I'm just going to say that that last sentence may help fuel some more speculation on the ultimate fate of Emilidis. If he did retreat to his foundry (apparently permanently) after raising the Barricades, it does seem that Skuthula is in fact just lying/bragging about having eaten him (not that I gave much credit to his claims in the first place). The glossary does give list him as dead, but that may be because everyone actually believes this to be true, we have no actual credible evidence he did die.

H:

--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 06, 2018, 11:45:34 am ---There are many things that could be discussed here, but for now I'm just going to say that that last sentence may help fuel some more speculation on the ultimate fate of Emilidis. If he did retreat to his foundry (apparently permanently) after raising the Barricades, it does seem that Skuthula is in fact just lying/bragging about having eaten him (not that I gave much credit to his claims in the first place). The glossary does give list him as dead, but that may be because everyone actually believes this to be true, we have no actual credible evidence he did die.
--- End quote ---

Great quotes.  I think there is definitely something to his work and soul manipulation.  I do believe that Skuthula is probably telling the truth though.  Why bother to lie?  I think it's likely that after a millenia hiding in the Forge, Emilidis was probably well and Erratic.  Since he couldn't actually kill himself, what better way to get dead than to walk directly into the Intrinsic Gate?

ThoughtsOfThelli:

--- Quote from: H on June 06, 2018, 02:09:13 pm ---Great quotes.  I think there is definitely something to his work and soul manipulation.  I do believe that Skuthula is probably telling the truth though.  Why bother to lie?  I think it's likely that after a millenia hiding in the Forge, Emilidis was probably well and Erratic.  Since he couldn't actually kill himself, what better way to get dead than to walk directly into the Intrinsic Gate?
--- End quote ---

With all these hints, there has to be. And rereading chapters where the Heart and the Dreams are mentioned make the whole Amiolas/double soul connection much more apparent in retrospect (I'll touch on that a bit in my chapter 9 comment).
Maybe the whole fact that Skuthula is...well, Skuthula makes me immediately dismiss everything he says. You do have a point there, with Emilidis possibly committing "suicide by dragon", much the same way Sorweel considers that Oinaral committed suicide the only way a Nonman could. Still, it's kind of infuriating to think that this fascinating and mysterious character might have been killed by the least impressive dragon ever.
Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part and I actually want Emilidis to be alive and make an appearance later - I don't know, it's not entirely rational.

Francis Buck:
I don't recall if it's stated who made it, but the sorcerous gate in the Coffers (seen in one of Akka's dreams, with Seswatha and the dead baby) is later described in the TUC glossary as working because the "sorceries are continually cast and recast". Perhaps this is how Emilidis's stuff works in some degree?

Also I'm quite enjoying these Heart theories, the Heart and Seswatha in general is a particular fascination of mine.

I've hypothesized in Quorum that the Heart is, in fact, Serwe's. There's lots of little quotes I have filed away somewhere on this -- there's a line in TWP during Akka's torture about how "The Heart of a great tree never burns" -- but it would explain a few things, such as how Kellhus was able to achieve the Gnosis without having grasped the Heart (he already did) and also what makes Serwe such an important "cipher" to the series as RSB has claimed. There are also numerous comparisons in the text between Serwe and the "World", or the Heart of the World, etc., and it would dovetail interestingly with the Mandate Catechism: "Though you forfeit your Soul, you gain the World." If this was the case, then it could also be how Kellhus himself still has a role to play -- he may be the Seswatha "homunculus", and so still exists or lives on in this capacity (which could make sense of why Ajokli cannot find him).

Of course it's also rather tricky since it would require some atemporality in play. I should mention that I 100% believe that Seswatha was not a single individual, but many different people (presumably anyone with the Gnosis or anyone who has grasped the Heart), resolving issues like the Dreams inconsistencies and how he could have escaped something like being nailed to the wall of Dagliash (I.E. he didn't, that was just one incarnation of Seswatha).

Somewhere I have some quotes complied on this...time to do some trawling.

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