Mog is more the true harbinger of the end than the end itself, as H points out above.
Probably noteworthy that the Consult aid that it is the manner which the butchery takes places, rather than the butchery itself. This pretty much implies that they do need Mog to be swirling around while the destroy everyone. So with that, while Mog is not 'the end', it is also inseparable from it.

As Kellhus said, the Inchoroi, the Consult, will eventually win. But it might not be this time. Though, it is hard, very hard, to imagine someone stopping the Consult this time:
Its now comprised of 4 dunyain who I assume are each individually smarter and better military tacticians than the old Consult, and in their sum they must be far far greater.
Far more Sranc - worse, mostly the sturdier horde from the Mountains, not to mention everything in the northeast, east, and western reaches of Earwa (where were presumably all cleared during Apocalypse 1).
There are now only the exhasted remains of the schools. Apocalypse 1 had at least 3 gnostic schools and the Quya.
Military power is at an all time low. All that remains are the Scylvendi and Zeum. (Btw, the last scene with Moenghus, it switches to 2nd person narrative (btw, fuck that, its worse than 1st person), so I expect Moenghus to do something strange).

Finally, from the gods perspective, the Eschaton is the final moment the gods perceive. It represents a singularity, if that term is more helpful to you. Meaning that after that moment, reality exists outside of the gods perspective.

Very insightful, Wilshire, thanks!

During Kellhus' final conversation with Proyas, he shares yet another shocking revelation (seriously, can't Prosha get a break?) about the future:

"...The thing -- the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win.  At some point, perhaps this year or ages hence, the whole of humanity will be butchered."

This is an elaboration of what Oinaral shares with Sorweel in TGO:

"...To exist across all times is to be oblivious to the Eschaton, the limit of those times, and Mog-Pharou is that limit. The Eschaton."

Taken together, these lay out a bleak future for Earwa -- the TNG as a multi-volume (calling BS on Scott's "two volumes") version of The Road.  The Gods atemporal perspective makes them blind to their own end and because they are blind to the Consult, the Consult is their end. 

In another fantasy series, I'd accept both of these statements as gospel and move along.  But this is Bakker, and one of the things I love about TSA is how unreliable perspectives mean we never really know the objective, factual truth of anything metaphysical.  That is to say, what we learn about, for example, sorcery, is what Men and Nonmen know, not what is.  Unless, of course, it comes from Bakker.  Although his penchant for misdirection calls even that into question.

With that in mind, I see a couple of inconsistencies in Kellhus and Oinaral's statements:

"...the whole of humanity will be butchered."  This is presuming that the Inchoroi are right about the mechanism for closing off the World to the Outside.  And presuming that butchery is the *only* way of closing it off.   

"...Mog-Pharou is that limit."  This isn't True(tm) at all, is it?  From the Gods' perspective, the Eschaton is the moment where the World is shut off from the Outside, their end.  But I think there's solid evidence (perhaps from Scott) that the NG is *not* what shuts out the Outside (and therefore, the Gods) -- Ajokli manifesting in Kellhus as Exhibit A in that argument.  The Dunsult imply that it's Ark that can shut things off once it can apprehend the "code on the World".   

Given these inconsistencies, I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine an alternative means of shutting out the Outside as a potential future.  Does the "Death of Meaning" require what amounts to the eradication of all much a fragment of conscious life?

If there is an alternative, what could it be?

Quote from:  Madness

]It's interesting that I can't articulate my distinctions (largely because no one aside from profgrape and draft readers have tried teasing the particulars with me).

I do attribute all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli (profgrape and I have tried many times to work out the specifics regarding how/why Ajokli would speak from Kellhus' life experience, etc).

I don't attribute Cnaiur's dialogue to Ajokli. I think the authorial reasoning behind the "shadow of four horns" (badly paraphrasing) is to show that despite the No-God and their "blindness" to it (though Ajokli's agency might differ), the Gods, but specifically Ajokli, can still interact with and wield influence in the world.

EDIT: Likewise to show that that Cnaiur can't see the No-God because he's inhabited by Ajokli, thus the Gods can exercise agency in Earwa while still being unable to perceive the No-God.

Correct the Gods can still function, because the Outside isn't shut yet....ergo Kellhus isn't done.

Oh, from my reading and the simple fact of the decapitants and that glossary entry and the head in a pole scene from TGO (that clearly was Ajokli), they had some sort of relationship. But, I agree, I don't think Kellhus struck any deals.

And, here's my confusion where you then contribute ALL dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli. Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms. One clue this isn't Ajokli the whole time, is telling Malowebi avert your eyes.... Why would Ajokli care what a mere soul saw in the IF? All dialogue up until the point Kellhus's head bursts into flames, I attribute to Kellhus. I believe that Ajokli is there waiting for the right time and steps in when wants and then the dialogue about making them his slaves and he'll in Earth, blah, blah,  blah.

I don't see how you can think they didn't make a pact and attribute all dialogue to Ajokli. Doesn't make sense to me. I agree, no pact and Ajokli just using Kellhus as a vehicle for treachery. But, I can't attribute the dialogue to Ajokli. Not at all. Anyhow. We're here, let's tease this out...meld or what have you.

One way to think about it: it's Kellhus speaking what he thinks are his thoughts but in truth, the impetus (AKA DTCB) is coming from Ajokli.  When the Ciphrang-God manifests, it's really just to cow the Mutilated into submission.

At this point, I'm more or less convinced that the Great Ordeal was little more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the GR, the topos of topoi.

Quote from: Sausuna on October 05, 2017, 12:15:04 pm

I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

Or does he want to deny the other's their share while simultaneously growing his own?  Or, of course, both a great hunger and some level of "revenge?"

I'm inclined to thing that it's mostly just a power grab.  The fact that Bakker hadn't decided whether it would be Gilgaol or Ajokli as late as TTT makes me think it's not a question of Ajokli's motivation specifically and more about what a God might want.

Quote from: TaoHorror on October 03, 2017, 07:42:04 pm

Quote from: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:35:07 pm

Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?

That Comes Before .

Quote from: profgrape on October 03, 2017, 11:21:15 pm

I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time.   He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!? 

I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him.  But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Lol, we've had long talks about this. I know that fans out there find Bakker's AMA answers totally unprecedented by the text but I honestly don't experience the dissonance.

Kellhus was busy. One intellect and two hands, however distant his disciples. He went through varying stages of understanding the Visions (ultimately just electing to distrust them), mucked around with the Daimos as a tool against the Consult, and didn't have time to figure out about Ajokli specifically.

You know, little distracted, just out there trying to save the world . Focused, I'll bet Kellhus could have figured it out as he might have Kelmomas and Samarmus.

EDIT: As per your bold, Kellhus arguably fought the Holy War, straight into the Unification Wars, before immediately thereafter getting his hands on the Daimos. The incident on Mengedda could have been long before he stopped trusting the Visions or before he had a better understanding of the Daimos.

That's the thing: I don't think Kellhus was hoodwinked.  At least, I think I don't think the outcome (his salting) was entirely unexpected...

If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.

This is awesome, Duskweaver.  Ajokli as Trickster/Mark (or Anansi/Leopard if you prefer) reminds me a lot of the duality with Kelmomas and Sarmamas. 

Quote from: Khaine on October 02, 2017, 09:55:46 am

...

On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.

Quote from: tleilaxu on October 02, 2017, 07:11:54 pm

Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?

In TTT, if he's being honest with Moenghus, he thinks it's the former. As per Bakker's comments on the AMA, he doesn't ever realize it's Ajokli. In text this interpretation is bolstered by Kellhus' remarks to Proyas in TGO about how he no longer trusts the Voice or the Visions and how listening to it/them when it/they told him to kill his father was a mistake. In TUC, this is further addressed when Kellhus pulls Proyas up from being slung to talk to him about the Darkness moving him more and more.

I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time.   He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!? 

I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him.  But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.