Apologies from the start, haven’t read this forum or posted in a few years. Just found out a month ago TGO was out and finished reading it … which brought me here. I forget quite a few important details like why Moenghus left Ishual and how the Thousand Fold Thought was learned by Kellus – his father shared it or he discovered on his own? Guess I’ll have to reread the books – one of the benefits of having a weak memory, art is a new experience every time you see it 

I read this whole thread all at once, not organically as people posted, so I may have missed some nuance to the discussion. I’m going to address several points across threads on this post for efficiency. I haven’t read everything, so apologies for redundancy of covering toiled ground. That said, me thinks the measuring of millimeters to discover what Kellus’s true intention/direction may be misguided ( that or I’m simply not smart enough to see a massive hidden meaning beyond the thousands of supposed clues to the real game being played ). Bakker is a demon, for sure, nothing he’s writing is just to describe the “beautiful” landscape. But a lot of it is to build intrigue, or at least so I think since I read these books at the edge of my seat excitedly crying aloud, “dude, no way!”, frequently.

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I look at this simplistically. Kellus was raised with the Logos to achieve a purely self-moving soul ( I think this is Bakker exploring "finding the bottom of the bag" as he addresses in another of his books … whereas in Neuropath that exploration was purely scientific, what would it be like for a sect of humans devoted to accomplishing the same thing via conscious exploration ). He’s sent away from the Dunyain to assassinate his father ( bit lost on the Survivor claiming no awareness of sorcery when Moënghus communicates to the Dunyain to send his son – sorcery – maybe they hushed that up or something ). He learns of the world and of sorcery. For some reason, he’s taken to it – or maybe simply following his directive, not allowing “the world” to deter him. His son, the Survivor, didn’t take to it well at all, quickly dismissing 2,000 years of Dunyain effort and concludes the Absolute is zero, etc. The Survivor does enjoy the benefit of getting an upshot on the status of his soul with The Eye and when he “turns green” he’s like, fuck it, I’m good to join the absolute/god and commits suicide. I detect a mild slap at those of us who believe in religious salvation for if we’re confident we’re saved, no point on risking damnation – if you really are “saved”, best thing that could happen to you is a quick death. I digress …

In short, I think Kellus set out to do what he was told – found out his father was powerful as all get out, potentially with sorcery ( unaware at first the water didn’t take for his pop, not one of the few ) and determined he needed massive power ( an army ) to overwhelm his father and kill him as directed. In the process/journey, he discovers ( again, don’t remember how ) the Thousand Fold Thought for which I took was the threading of the needle to save humanity from extinction. All that we’re seeing in the books is that path. He’s taken up the task to save humanity. Because even though we’re children in his eyes he still feels connected and responsible to protect us like a parent? Because he’s a mad fucker who thought it would be fun to drive an army through hell to defeat an unbeatable enemy to show the planet whose boss? Don’t know for sure, but I don’t identify with evidence brought up in this forum that he’s in cahoots with The Consult – this would be a massive rouse if that’s the case with the smell of cheap writing we see in television shows – to shock for shock’s sake, to surprise by drumming up something completely different with no clue to the viewer what’s coming. Pretty much anyone can do that … create a love story only to see the happy couple who traveled misunderstanding and tragedy together reaching a beautiful connection to only to be hacked up by a madman with a chainsaw in the end. It’s one thing to spin a yarn, quite another to fuck your readers over for the fun of it. I think it's simpler - he sees an "end" and accepts his species evolutionary programming that the show should go on; maybe enjoying some of the hooks ( read: love ) that other humans indulge. That all said, I do see Bakker’s writing teaching us something about the cost of us readers for “loving” or even rooting for Kellus – that loving those we see “higher” than ourselves is risking our own lives as well as our identity/humanity – simply, be careful dear reader in idolizing others. The lesson is to avoid being played and manipulated and for those “leaders” and “heroes” we love, we’re allowing them to use us – often not in our best interests. As long as Kellus is “working” for humanity, cool – if he deviates or violates that trajectory, don’t hesitate to kill him. I think that’s the lesson Kellus is giving Proyas, that his love of Kellus is holding him back, watering his ability to command the GO in Kellus’ absence. The rape was harsh, but maybe felt he had to do the non-man thing of marrying tragedy to an event so it will hit home with Proyas. Or maybe as metaphor as he breaks Proyas’ conditioning, “see what can happen when you put all your chips on one person” and/or just because I’m saving your hind sides from the furnace, doesn’t mean you should trust me.

Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum – so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.

My goodness, has it been 3 years? Yikes! I'm a POS in the true Gnostic sense. Ok, my friend, from a lessor mind, I'll dig it up and prostrate myself to you good people. Keep in mind, not playing with a full deck.

Very funny and instructive as well! I've been off the forum for a while and had this long post I was going to make, but this made me throw it away - you said it all, my friend. That and I'm bit insecure due to the obviously superior minds posting in this thing. So many of you understand these books much more than I have.

Apologies, I started posting before introducing myself ( didn't notice this "sub-forum" initially ). Haven't posted in forums for many years, forgot the decorum ( conditioning? ). Anyways, here I am dinning on love of all that is Bakker literature with you fine people.

A bit about me, I'm Barry, alive in Tampa, Florida, USA - soaking in the sun for decades ( so my squibs are fully baked, not half ). Look forward to "contributing" ( read: reducing ) to the contemplation that is Bakker. I'm sure we all shared the same initial assessment ( he's Canadian, so this "book" is probably bullshit ) only to ascend into pleasant surprise.

I differ from our good writer - I celebrate contradiction, inconsistency and hypocrisy - finding beauty with these"defective" human traits.

I took the question of the face reminding him of Kellhus to be of personality/situation and not appearance. Could be an old relative, but thought more that it was someone "feisty", hard to kill perhaps. Mekeritrig ( and thanks for the correct spelling ) is one of my favorite characters in the books, his "conversation" with Seswatha on the wall was ... memorable. I have to hand it to Bakker, he's amazing with evil ( not accurate, but can't think of the right word - alien perhaps ) logic and pathology. His descriptions of the apocalypse with dragons falling from the sky picking off panic scattered humans was terrifying - pangs at something deep in me, something "not right" with humans so helpless against animals - our ingenuity, our resourcefulness, our intellect ... none of it enough to stop the annihilation - the only thing that worked was something of the enemies' own manufacture.

Ah, thanks! The Consult - still a little confused on that one. They're "human" sorcerers ... they're the skin-spies too I think ... so they teamed with the aliens and used their Tekne to develop the skin-spy ability ... hmm, maybe not, maybe the skin-spies are "products" of the Consult using the Tekne because the "thing" tracking Mimara in the White Luck Warrior didn't have a soul, so if it was one of the Consult Sorcerers themselves then it would have a soul being a human. I love the play with conscious creatures with no soul still having free will ( the "thing" seemed to "like" Mimara which suggests a will of some kind, to deviate from plan with preferences ... so either nobody has a soul or others beyond human have souls too ... I guess ).