The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Yellow on September 18, 2016, 05:35:36 pm
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Just started a re-read of TGO and trying to fathom Kellhus' motives with his re-working of Proyas throughout the book (the head on a pole still makes no more sense to me than before).
Kellhus needs to retrain Proyas' faith in order for him to do something that he would otherwise never do. First, he de-humanises the God (It rather than He) and then "villainises" the God (our damnation is the God's harvest). He also completely breaks Proyas down by admitting that he (Kellhus) is a fraud and everything Akka said he was.
Why? Why does he do this?
He does not need to re-program Proyas if his only goal is the destruction of Golgotterath and the Consult. Proyas would already be more than happy to do this. What does he need from him that a) Proyas would otherwise never have done, and b) serves Kellhus' ultimate aim (whatever that is), perhaps in his absence?
So, I think Proyas will be the one to "release" or at least allow the release of the NG. What else could it be?
Kellhus needs the NG to close off the outside (I also believe either he or Kayutas, probably the latter due to the symmetries with Nau-Cayuti, will become the NG). Proyas will act to bring it about. I can't think of any other task that would be so anathema to Proyas and require him to be broken down so severely.
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This was what I gathered from the whole Kelly - Proyas tutoring. However I'm hesitant to believe it. Mostly because I want Kellhus to be good, but also because it sort of betrays Kellhus' later actions; running home to salvage what he can as soon as the ordeal is safe from the horde. Unless the outside can somehow be shut without the specified number of souls.
Despite my desires to the contrary, I think Kellhus has a devious plan concerning the no god that Proyas will somehow enact with his newfound knowledge or... Something. There are so many variables that couldn't be accounted for, like the nuke.
Cuts and cuts and cuts
Slight addendum sorry am drunk
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@Yellow, :slow claps:!!!!
That is an excellent, well thought out theory, for the purpose of breaking down Proyas the way Kellhus has. We know we're going to see the No-God walk, and using Proyas as a catalyst for that is just great. The devout religious follower, who is told everything he has ever believed is wrong, and helps to bring about what he thought he would be a part of destroying. I love it. Would love it twice as much of he goes in the Carapace.
[edit=Wilshire]: fixed reference
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Hi Yellow! Hi Doubt!
Welp, whatever's going on I can't shake it from my head that Bakker is going to be doing some parallels with the lead up to Jesus' death (Golgotterath/Golgotha). So maybe Proyas is being molded into Kellhus' Judas-role?
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Kellhus leaves Proyas with the most fun problem--not only is the Great Ordeal going to have to eat itself, sorcerers and witches are going to be eating zaudunyani. The rank and file won't be happy! What a headache for management! What do you bet Kellhus shows up right when more sranc/food arrives?
It will be interesting to see what Kellhus does to Proyas in front of the GO to mend things. Would Kellhus eat Proyas as 'punishment'? Or offer him to be eaten?
While we're on the subject, maybe a big twist will be that Kellhus outdoes Jesus and literally gives himself as sustenance for salvation?
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This was what I gathered from the whole Kelly - Proyas tutoring. However I'm hesitant to believe it. Mostly because I want Kellhus to be good, but also because it sort of betrays Kellhus' later actions; running home to salvage what he can as soon as the ordeal is safe from the horde. Unless the outside can somehow be shut without the specified number of souls.
Despite my desires to the contrary, I think Kellhus has a devious plan concerning the no god that Proyas will somehow enact with his newfound knowledge or... Something. There are so many variables that couldn't be accounted for, like the nuke.
Cuts and cuts and cuts
Slight addendum sorry am drunk
I think he has figured out how to do it without the reduction in souls... But he still needs Mog to achieve it somehow. So he needs rid of the Consult to get his hands on it.
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It will be interesting to see what Kellhus does to Proyas in front of the GO to mend things. Would Kellhus eat Proyas as 'punishment'? Or offer him to be eaten?
Or maybe he found out the recipe for Mog requires a living sarcophagus (flesh-eater in ancient Greek, as someone mentioned somewhere on this forum) is in this case: Proyas to awaken as the No-God after having been eaten. That would be a moment of dread.
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Maybe it's like highlander and you get the powaz of those you eat and all those they ate before them?
I really shouldn't be reading these threads - 6 more days to go until the bookshop should have TGO...
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@Wilshire, :slow claps:!!!!
?
My guess is that he needs Proyas to betray both him (Kellhus) and It (God), for some purpose. A piece of it, I think, is preparing Proyas to lead, and especially to prepare him for the eating of the host.
I think it makes Proyas a contingency plan in the event that Kellhus himself breaks and deviates from the Path.
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@Wilshire, :slow claps:!!!!
?
My guess is that he needs Proyas to betray both him (Kellhus) and It (God), for some purpose. A piece of it, I think, is preparing Proyas to lead, and especially to prepare him for the eating of the host.
I think it makes Proyas a contingency plan in the event that Kellhus himself breaks and deviates from the Path.
It could also be that Proyas needs to be conditioned to "accept" Akka's return? Or welcome it, perhaps?
As my crack-pot theories simmer, I am coming more and more to believe that The Tousand-fold Thought is impossible to understand as individual gears moving. Each is unimportant, in a sense, except for where they meet and what turns based on that.
To be more clear, I mean that each moving part can't really be understood outside of context of the whole.
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@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.
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@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.
I thought it was Yellow (the OP) that suggested that, not Wilshire? (unless you are referring to a previous conversation I'm not aware of)
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@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.
I thought it was Yellow (the OP) that suggested that, not Wilshire? (unless you are referring to a previous conversation I'm not aware of)
Oh, my bad. I got confused there. Well, @Yellow, I like it.
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I had nothing to do with this. All praise should be heaped upon Yellow!
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I remember someone raising that possibility before somewhere but I can't recall who, when and where.
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I will take the praise, both for this and any time anyone else suggested it before me.
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I will take the praise, both for this and any time anyone else suggested it before me.
Yea, sorry, guess I looked at a post Wilshire quoted you on and had a brain fart. Anyhow, I like it. I feel there is more to Kellhus's condition of Proyas than just cannibalism. So, Proyas being a factor in raising the No-God would fit nicely, me thinks. Anathema to everything the man has ever thought or felt in his life. Very Bakkery!
ETA: me and autocorrect just haven't been getting along lately.
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I still think that it has more to do with being open to Akka upon his arrival then it does in actually resurrecting the No-God. It certainly seems that the Dream Akka has, of the line of prisoners dragged into the Golden Room is largely the key to the No-God's literal resurrection. This dream actually preceded The Scald (we see peices of it in WLW), so the Scalded (if that is who they are) were actually Fated well before The Great Ordeal ever even approached Dagliash.
The thing is Proyas being disillusioned in and of itself certainly seems like a meaningless act. I think the time where we consider parts of The Thousand-fold Thought as in any way independent has been shored away by TGO though. Proyas needs to be disillusioned by Kellhus so he can accept Akka. He needs to accept Akka when he comes, because Mimara needs to be in a place to do/look at/see what she needs to. That wouldn't happen if Proyas was still a Zaudunyani. Kellhus can't be there to accept Akka, because the time when Mimara can look upon him isn't until later, he isn't "holy" just yet. So, someone else needs to be in charge of the Great Ordeal. It couldn't be Saubon and that's why he is dead.
It's all interconnected, nothing stands alone, it is all about how it interweaves with the next step. It's just like the Survivor keeps saying, cuts and cuts and cuts. Everything happened, everything is happening, because that's how it needs to happen.