The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Sillyfish on July 31, 2017, 11:57:26 pm
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If the Gods and the Outside can't see the No-God, what do they think humanity is doing? I mean, do they think that Humanity is just doing something crazy? Do they think Kellhus has created the Great Ordeal for no reason other than a whim?
I mean surely, if the gods have a modicum of intelligence and awareness they know that something is going on.... Right?
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There was a part in the end of TUC where Kellhus was saying that some of the Gods inferred the presence of the Consult based on an absence surrounding certain actions, but that was it. Somewhere else it mentions that during the First Apocalypse people prayed to the Gods for deliverance, and when the Gods looked they saw nothing, and this angered them. It's also why some of them were waging war on Kellhus, because he was the only thing they could attribute all the commotion to.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Sillyfish :).
We do have a thread for The Gods and Their Agency (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2291.0) to try and tease what they can and can't see, how they wield their influence, etc.
I think, though, they probably just thought humanity was doing it to themselves.
It's also why some of them were waging war on Kellhus, because he was the only thing they could attribute all the commotion to.
I really need to finish reading the book (savouring it!) but I think this a fairly common misconception so far. The Gods aren't hunting Kellhus, they're hunting Ajokli, whom they know is making a play for whatever Ajokli wants through Kellhus' mortal coil.
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It's also why some of them were waging war on Kellhus, because he was the only thing they could attribute all the commotion to.
I really need to finish reading the book (savouring it!) but I think this a fairly common misconception so far. The Gods aren't hunting Kellhus, they're hunting Ajokli, whom they know is making a play for whatever Ajokli wants through Kellhus' mortal coil.
Ehh...little of column A, little of column B.
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It's also why some of them were waging war on Kellhus, because he was the only thing they could attribute all the commotion to.
I really need to finish reading the book (savouring it!) but I think this a fairly common misconception so far. The Gods aren't hunting Kellhus, they're hunting Ajokli, whom they know is making a play for whatever Ajokli wants through Kellhus' mortal coil.
Ehh...little of column A, little of column B.
Not by my read, so far ;).
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I hadn't thought of it that way Madness but it makes so much sense.
As for how the Gods could possibly be this blind to the No-God: I think we're dealing with something more profound than mere ignorance. This is an agnosia. The No-God and anything to do with it is an utter impossibility to even conceive of for most of the Hundred. To draw an analogy, think of a human being with a neurological condition known as hemineglect. It's a rare disorder caused by damage in a part of the brain that allows the left and right hemispheres to communicate with each other. Once communication is interrupted...the corresponding side of that person's body ceases to exist for them cognitively. It's not just that they can't feel it or see it. They can't even conceive that it exists or ever existed. You can slap their side or point it to them all you like. They'll never understand what you're trying to convince them of. It's physically beyond them. They've even lost the capability to realize they've lost a capability.
The brain keeps doing what it does though, and the conciousness spins stories to make sense of its surroundings. Why you bumped into that door. Why you tripped. Why you can't see very well today, etc. None of those stories include the fact that there's something wrong with one side of your body, of course. Because that concept no longer exists for you. Rather, it's because you heard a startling noise or were distracted by a bird, or something similar.
These stories sound like a rationalization, but it's not. On some level a rationalization is also a lie we tell ourselves. This is not a lie. It's a genuine best guess to explain something your brain is no longer physically capable of apprehending.
So, I think, it is with the Hundred and the No-God.
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I hadn't thought of it that way Madness but it makes so much sense.
As for how the Gods could possibly be this blind to the No-God: I think we're dealing with something more profound than mere ignorance. This is an agnosia. The No-God and anything to do with it is an utter impossibility to even conceive of for most of the Hundred. To draw an analogy, think of a human being with a neurological condition known as hemineglect. It's a rare disorder caused by damage in a part of the brain that allows the left and right hemispheres to communicate with each other. Once communication is interrupted...the corresponding side of that person's body ceases to exist for them cognitively. It's not just that they can't feel it or see it. They can't even conceive that it exists or ever existed. You can slap their side or point it to them all you like. They'll never understand what you're trying to convince them of. It's physically beyond them. They've even lost the capability to realize they've lost a capability.
The brain keeps doing what it does though, and the conciousness spins stories to make sense of its surroundings. Why you bumped into that door. Why you tripped. Why you can't see very well today, etc. None of those stories include the fact that there's something wrong with one side of your body, of course. Because that concept no longer exists for you. Rather, it's because you heard a startling noise or were distracted by a bird, or something similar.
These stories sound like a rationalization, but it's not. On some level a rationalization is also a lie we tell ourselves. This is not a lie. It's a genuine best guess to explain something your brain is no longer physically capable of apprehending.
So, I think, it is with the Hundred and the No-God.
+1
When I think about these subjects in the books, which is rare as I fixate on other things, I've always wondered if the No-God/Gods/Outside are a brain metaphor such as the above.
The kinds of degeneration, dysfunction, or injury that inflict selective loss of cognitive function are infinitely interesting. To me, anyhow.
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it also seems like the nogod can't even see the nogod. in both incarnations he repeats "what am i?" "what do you see?"
is there any discussion of why he keeps repeating this? perhaps the nogod just wants a mirror.
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If the Gods and the Outside can't see the No-God, what do they think humanity is doing? I mean, do they think that Humanity is just doing something crazy? Do they think Kellhus has created the Great Ordeal for no reason other than a whim?
I mean surely, if the gods have a modicum of intelligence and awareness they know that something is going on.... Right?
No, they don't have any intelligence (doesn't the Mutilated straight up tell us so at one point?). And why would they? With the exception of the No-God and things related to it, they can see all that has happened and all that will happen. I would say they function like the White Luck, there is no skill in what they do, no choice. They simply do what they have already done.
Also, one of the larger themes in the book is that people having trouble seeing their own ignorance. People in general can't accept that Kellhus is a "thought-dancer", Kellhus himself can't accept the Kelmomas saw Sorweels motivations better than him, even the gods can't accept that what they see is not all that is.
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it also seems like the nogod can't even see the nogod. in both incarnations he repeats "what am i?" "what do you see?"
is there any discussion of why he keeps repeating this? perhaps the nogod just wants a mirror.
Yeah I assumed it was something like that. It seems aware that it should be self-aware, but it's not, so keeps reflexively asking that question over and over while going about its work.