after the hanging on the circumfix.i often wonder if he may have died on the circumfix and was possessed while he went to the outside.its possible,maybe?this was discussed when he was visted by the Nonmen in The white luck warrior.it was said he went to the outside in the unification wars.i cant seem to believe he could have removed his heart before the hanging.Is Kellhus a possessed soul.i would wage a bet he is.
he need not have died. Physiology seems to work differently on Earwa. For example, Thoughts pass through the soul, not through the brain.
I was pretty sure he tore out serwes heart, then pretended it was his own for the audience.
Quote from: SATXZI was pretty sure he tore out serwes heart, then pretended it was his own for the audience.
i would have thought that would have been noticedQuote from: lockesnowhe need not have died. Physiology seems to work differently on Earwa. For example, Thoughts pass through the soul, not through the brain.
Some people on earth would say the same thing.
This section recieved alot of editing and removal of text in the draft - there's ambiguous and then there's just plain confusing. I think we should all hope for some directors cut of the book or a cutting room floor excerpt in the future, in regard to this.
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005Well, if it makes you all feel any better, I'm actually not very happy with that section myself. The ambiguity is intentional. Since I use third-person centred, the character's mindset continually colours the prose. But the whole business with the heart actually played a role with Cnaiur that I subsequently axed. So now when I read it, I always feel the missing context. Could be you're feeling it too.
"This heart is the heart of the World, for one was made to satisfy the other..."
Quote from: MadnessQuote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005Well, if it makes you all feel any better, I'm actually not very happy with that section myself. The ambiguity is intentional. Since I use third-person centred, the character's mindset continually colours the prose. But the whole business with the heart actually played a role with Cnaiur that I subsequently axed. So now when I read it, I always feel the missing context. Could be you're feeling it too.
so we are supposed to ignore this heart removed from chest issue.i was really pulling for a possessed Kellhus.maybe a dead consult soul/demon that wants revenge on man and renegade nonmen and is leading them to their doom at the arc.........to make it easier for the sealing up of the world..........
i'm really curious as to what Kellhus would look like in the judging eye.......
I too would love to see Kellhus under the Judging Eye, Capt.Croaker. Though, we've been led to believe that the Dunyain appear spiritually superior by the Cishaurim's Third Sight, the only other kind of Religious Judgement we know about.
I don't think we're supposed to ignore the heart at all. The conclusion of TWP remains one of the most important moments in the entire series, thus far. Depending on how that moment is framed in the future will redetermine the series, past and future.
However, I'm suggesting that perhaps there was a real simple explanation and it was removed in this axed scene to allow for ambiguity - clearly worked, if purposeful.
I, also, do think that Kellhus' possession remains very much on the table - it has historical relevance, according to the Nonman Emissary and Malowebi, as it has happened before. However, the Nonman touching Kellhus primes us to believe that this isn't case with the Aspect-Emperor.
There's always more Nerdanel to thunk ;).
Edited for completeness:
To make sure everyone is "on the same page":
The Warrior Prophet, English paperback edition, page 588-589 Chapter Twenty Five: Caraskand
"Hands wrapped him in a shroud of white linen." p588
...
"Tears rolled down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs. He thrust it high to the thunder of their adulation. Beads of blood seemed to crack the stone at his feet ... He Glimpsed Sarcellus's uncoiled face.
I see...
'They said!' he cried in a booming voice, and the howling chorus trailed into silence.
'They said that I was False, that I caused the anger of the God to burn against us!'
He looked into the wasted faces. answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe's burning heart"
'But i say that we - WE! - are that anger!' "
p589
Text's italics, my bold.
It just doesn't seem to all fit together. How did he reach into his own breast and withdraw Serwe's heart? Also, how Serwe had been dead and has long since dripped clean of her own blood, it would be hard to imagine that someone that had been dead and drying out for that long would still be dripping with blood.
Quote from: WilshireTo make sure everyone is "on the same page":
The Warrior Prophet, english paperback edition, page 589 Chapter Twenty Five: Caraskand
"Tears rolled down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs. He thrust it high to the thunder of their adulation. Beads of blood seemed to crack the stone at his feet ... He Glimpsed Sarcellus's uncoiled face" ....
"He looked into the wasted faces. answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe's burning heart"
It just doesn't seem to all fit together. First its "his breast", but then its "Serwe's heart".
hmmmm...........
another thing,i have read no mention of Kellhus having seswathas apocalypse dreams,although he is a mandate.could be he is possessed by seswatha.........i can hardly wait for the unholy consult.this is worse than waiting for the last Dark Tower book(that book was the worst let down in my life)
I included the first bit to note that he wasn't naked at this point. He was shrouded in a cloth of some kind, so it is possible he simply reached into his robes and pulled out someones 'recently' removed heart.
The text did clearly state that the cloth was white. Considering the condition of the town at this point, have a clean piece of any cloth is impressive, a clean white one even more so. Probably would have been noticeable that there was a huge red stain on it when it was wrapped around Kellhus... Maybe not though. Kellhus is the one that 'said' the cloth was white, and he was at least a tiny bit delusional, so maybe he missed it. Or it could have been a part of some scheme... I haven't a clue
At first glance is may seem obvious that he simply tricked the crowed into thinking that he was holding Serwe's heart. But that little trick isn't viewed from the crowds POV, its from Kellhus himself.
Why did he reach into his own breast to pull out the heart?
How did he do this?
What was the point of this whole thing anyway? i.e what did he gain by showing everyone the heart?
Notice also that "with a haloed hand" he did the heart thing. This, I believe, is the first time he sees that halos. What caused the change in his mind to now see the Halos? Is it some kind of 'proof' of his divinity, or is he just bat shit crazy?
The first time I read this section I wrote it off ass "he thinks he's a prophet so naturally his hands are holy", however now knowing the end of TTT and TAE so far, it is clear that he actually saw the halos surrounding his hands.
Quotesomething inexplicable moved him(this intro's that section, does this and his self description as his standing an impossibility indicate that he is controlled by the gods at this point?Quotehe raised his palms to the great hollows of the earth and it seemed he embraced all the Three Seas.Hmm...QuoteAnd it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place... He was all things, and all things were his...
This directly precedes the above quoted section of the infamous serwe's heart sequence. In lieu of the wight/frame/gate, in lieu of the Dunyain training at the end of TDTCB which says that he became only PLACE, I would suggest that the writing is strongly suggesting here that Kellhus transcends the boundaries--the frame--of Dunyain training, he is no longer limited by the frame of PLACE that the Dunyain create to enable their superpowers.
And I think--as others have suggested--that Kellhus, seeing as he is no longer constrained by place, no longer constrained by frame, Kellhus creates a new frame of reality, or a series of frames, that allow him to reach through his chest, exit the frame of the world, navigate his hand to Serwes chest, reenter the frame of the world, grasp her heart and pull it out through his chest as he pulls his arm back into the original frame/place.
Perhaps this is the point of the Dunyain training to become only place to eventually become only frame?
a search of "haloed" for TWP reveals a couple of "haloed hands" that belong to artwork of Inri Sejenus
Martemus is the first in the book to see Kellhus' haloed hands. He sees it again later. Esmenet sees his haloed hands twice, around the birth of Moenghus (talk about some fucking intensely important metaphysical explanation in the scene where Esme sees them) when Kellhus takes her to wife. Serwe sees his haloed hands twice, but this is during the Interrorape by something (I'm guessing she was interroraped by whatever interroraped Esme, and that a glamour was used on Serwe as it was on Esme, and that this was not a skin spy, and this might explain her seeing the haloes as well).
And finally Kellhus sees his haloed hand at the very end of the book, which is what this thread is about.
Serwe sees his haloes twice in TDTCB and we know that is Kellhus.
So all three people, save Kellhus, that have seen the haloes have seen them twice.
Serwes heart in my hard book and ebook. Literally, it was a dunyain trick for the ignorant audience. The guy dodges arrows and bolts, he's the flash an professor x in one.
Lol, SATXZ. You'll notice many of us take perverse joy in making simple things complex ;).
Dunyain vs. Divine trickery is exactly the argument at hand and for this crowd attempts at evidence go a long way. If it's a Dunyain trick, pure and simple, enlighten us, why does that seem obvious?
Also, lockesnow, you should have searched more variants? Or perhaps, don't have TDTCB on e-book?
"She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherwordly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!" (TDTCB, p447)
QuoteSerwe sees his haloes twice in TDTCB and we know that is Kellhus.Quote from: MadnessAlso, lockesnow, you should have searched more variants? Or perhaps, don't have TDTCB on e-book?
"She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherwordly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!" (TDTCB, p447)
Quote from: lockesnowQuotesomething inexplicable moved him(this intro's that section, does this and his self description as his standing an impossibility indicate that he is controlled by the gods at this point?Quotehe raised his palms to the great hollows of the earth and it seemed he embraced all the Three Seas.Hmm...QuoteAnd it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place... He was all things, and all things were his...
This directly precedes the above quoted section of the infamous serwe's heart sequence. In lieu of the wight/frame/gate, in lieu of the Dunyain training at the end of TDTCB which says that he became only PLACE, I would suggest that the writing is strongly suggesting here that Kellhus transcends the boundaries--the frame--of Dunyain training, he is no longer limited by the frame of PLACE that the Dunyain create to enable their superpowers.
And I think--as others have suggested--that Kellhus, seeing as he is no longer constrained by place, no longer constrained by frame, Kellhus creates a new frame of reality, or a series of frames, that allow him to reach through his chest, exit the frame of the world, navigate his hand to Serwes chest, reenter the frame of the world, grasp her heart and pull it out through his chest as he pulls his arm back into the original frame/place.
Perhaps this is the point of the Dunyain training to become only place to eventually become only frame?
if thats the case,the consult is in big trouble.he would be the greatest assassin in the 3 sea's
Apologies, lockesnow, will resolve to read closer. The commentary about Martemus being the first to see them threw me, perhaps.
well it comes from my adding things chronologically as I see them. I did do searches for haloed and just halo and I did TDTCB after doing TWP, hence the odd order of the previous post.
Capt. Croaker. just as what Mimara did to the Wight in the Mountain was a unique event at the time, I think we're meant to see Kellhus after the circumfixion as a unique event at the time. At that particular moment he was not constrained by the Dunyain sense of Place or the Earwan definitions of Frame--but this probably did not last, just as it did not last for Kellhus when he caught the knife in the flashback of the Dunyain training.
I like that analogy.
As a training exercise he had put his body through extremes in order to achieve some kind of mental perfection, the process taking about a week so straight meditation. "The Logos is without beginning or end."...
How long did Kellhus spend under that tree? I don't recall, but I think it was a bit less than a week, but it was at least a few days. Maybe this is something that simply happens to the Dunyain when they put their bodies through extreme pain and approach death. When death looms, or approches slowly for a few days, some kind of unconscious trigger is unlocked and they achieve some kind of more-ridiculous-than-normal super human feats.
That, or he's a sayian and since he almost died he is just stronger because thats what cannon says.
He drops a word from the sentence every day then a day without any words, his mind purged of thought or feeling. So a week or 8 days.
Under the tree, bout three days maximum; no one is allowed to give him water iirc.
The notion that Kellhus tore out Serwe's heart earlier is a bit silly. He was bound with her ankle to ankle and wrist to wrist then stretched out upside down and tied to four points on the circumfix, there is no leverage to even reach her heart. And they are both naked and guarded. They cut him down and wrap a cloth around him then he miraculously stands up and addresses the crowd.
Not a lot of time for ripping out hearts without anyone noticing.
My personal belief is:(click to show/hide)
I was going to mention the dude under the mountain who had an eyeball in his heart. Dude seemed to even see through it enough to talk about it, somewhat.
Perhaps some slip of desire occured at that point and Kellhus's hand slipped through his chest, wormhole like, to Serwe's chest. Perhaps also like a...what are they called? The plain of Mengedda is one?
Serwe being innocence, Kellhus firmly detaching innocence from him at what is, if he's mad (whatever perspective of mad that is), his point of becoming mad.
I dont think the city or the tree are topoi, which is what you are referring too. Has that city/tree been surrounded by enough suffering through the years to be transformed into a topos? Could be, but I doubt.
I like your khahit idea, especially the no-god's.
I think like the scars on a Scylvendi's arm representing how the many ways many men could have gone have ended at one man, alot of lives (still living) hinge on Kellhus. Given the magic and stuff it could have some kind of effect.
what's the argument? It literally reads "Serwe's heart".
I'm surprised that we are still having this argument. It was clearly Serwe's heart. Remember that wicked old bugger Eleazaras, when he recalls the episode, he says something to the effect, "Now that had to be a trick!". Of course it was, Kellhus was practising sleight of hand not sorcery. And with any miracle worker, the tales around the episode grew. Serwe's corpse had been mutilated before Kellhus was bound to the circumfix; since it was a skin spy who did this, he must have done a very thorough job.
Yes it does read "Serwe's heart", great job for reading the text, I'm impressed.
The question, if you assume that it is indeed Serwe's heart, is: how did he get her heart? A man who has been hanging upside down for 3 days without food or water would have trouble tearing a flower petal off of a dried flower. A heart from a corpse would be more difficult.
There are many cases of the text being purposefully misleading or just simply wrong, as the characters in the book are fallible and prone to error. If you'd like to know more about the argument about this subject, you'd probably have to read some posts rather than just restating your own thoughts.
"How did he get her heart?"
Sarcellus had probably cut out her heart in order to phuck the hole.
Quote from: anor277"How did he get her heart?"
Sarcellus had probably cut out her heart in order to phuck the hole.
A distinct possibility
Quote from: WilshireYes it does read "Serwe's heart", great job for reading the text, I'm impressed.
how could you read so much into something, and not even notice the text?
The question, if you assume that it is indeed Serwe's heart, is: how did he get her heart? A man who has been hanging upside down for 3 days without food or water would have trouble tearing a flower petal off of a dried flower. A heart from a corpse would be more difficult.
its a fictional story, and Kellus plays Superman plus Professor X. How could he dodge arrows and crossbow bolts during night time and dust storms with low visibility? He's fictional, durrr.
There are many cases of the text being purposefully misleading or just simply wrong, as the characters in the book are fallible and prone to error. If you'd like to know more about the argument about this subject, you'd probably have to read some posts rather than just restating your own thoughts.
I have read through these posts. Including one where THE AUTHOR says he screwed up and didn't like the wording. So then you feel you can judge others?
If you read the whole section from the book you'd notice it was ambiguous.
Yeah its fictional, but that doesn't mean it has no rules. Yeah he's like superman, but he also is much less 'super' since he can be hurt by things, like not eating or drinking for 3 days. Its illogical, in Earwa, to think that someone so near death could brute-force their way into somebodies chest.
Who's judging?
Quote from: Capt.Croakeranother thing,i have read no mention of Kellhus having seswathas apocalypse dreams,although he is a mandate.could be he is possessed by seswatha.........i can hardly wait for the unholy consult.this is worse than waiting for the last Dark Tower book(that book was the worst let down in my life)
Capt.Croaker, I feel like no one addressed this for you but Kellhus is the only person to get his hands on the Gnosis without completing the ritual Grasping, where Mandatemust hold Seswatha's Heart to bind them to the Dreams... Oddly topical, that.(click to show/hide)
anor (wb ;)) & SATXZ, again, clearly SA thrives on making the simple complex.
I personally agree that it is Serwe's Heart and pre-TAE, I would have argued along with the two of you. However, it's preceded by the equal linguistic evidence: his breast, chest, etc.
Now the pieces of this puzzle might not be available to us yet. However, it matters whether or not Kellhus accomplished something metaphysical (sorcery or thaumaturgy) vs. mundane (Dunyain), specifically.
haha I believe there is a post somewhere that I told lockesnow that he was making things unnecessarily complex. The shoe is on the other foot now i suppose.
:lol:
And the Gods said, let there be text, and behold, there was textQuoteCrying out to one another in eager terror, the Nascenti cut the Warrior-Prophet from his dead wife. A hush, it seemed, had settled across the whole of Caraskand.
He knew he should be weak unto death, but something inexplicable moved him. He rolled from Serwë, braced his arms against his knees, then waving his frantic disciples away, stood impossibly erect. Hands wrapped him in a shroud of white linen. He stumbled clear of Umiaki’s gloom, lifted his face to sun and sky. He could feel awe shiver through the masses— awe of him. He raised his palms to the great hollows of the earth, and it seemed he embraced all the Three Seas.
I think I see, Father …
Cries of rapture and disbelief rang across the packed reaches of the Kalaul. Several paces away Cnaiür stood dumbstruck, as did Eleäzaras a length behind him. Incheiri Gotian staggered forward, fell to his knees and wept. Kellhus smiled with boundless compassion. Everywhere he looked, he saw men kneeling …
Yes … The Thousandfold Thought.
And it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place … He was all things, and all things were his …
He was one of the Conditioned. Dûnyain.
He was the Warrior-Prophet.
Tears roared down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs. He thrust it high to the thunder of their adulation. Beads of blood seemed to crack the stone at his feet … He glimpsed Sarcellus’s uncoiled face.
I see …
“They said!” he cried in a booming voice, and the howling chorus trailed into silence.
“They said that I was False, that I caused the anger of the God to burn against us!”
He looked into their wasted faces, answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwë’s burning heart.
“But I say that we— WE!— are that anger!”
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 11807-11826). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
First things first, this is the VERY LAST THING we hear from Kellhus' perspective until the climax of TTT begins, there will be hundreds and hundreds of pages where we are not privy at all to his perspective. So don't go looking for enlightenment from a Kellhus perspective in the beginning of the next book.
Second: False is capitalized. Could be a connection to non-men, and how False accusations of Falseness have some sort of resonant menaing.
Third: This centers around SEEING, which is an important motif laced throughout the first two books.
Fourth: Beats of blood causing stone to crack after they fly off a heart recently pulled out of a chest has been seen in the series before, Inrau did the same trick, but to another body. That description has the prefix of 'sorcerous speed' but Inrau was also hearing the voice of Onkis in that scene, so perhaps he had a similar god-given capability there that he didn't know how to utilize.
Fifth: Kellhus perceives his own hand as having a Halo.
Six: Kellhus perceives himself to be beyond place--being nothing but "place" was the revelation of Dunyain superpowers at the end of the first book.
Seventh: Kellhus perceives himself to be beyond frame--being beyond the strictures of a frame and able to assert your own frame is the revelation Mimara experiences at the end of TJE when her TJE superpowers are first unleashed.
Eighth: He was all things and all things were his: This can quite literally and simply be interpreted as Kellhus is Serwe's heart in this instance and Serwe's heart is his heart. He's saying he perceives himself to be beyond the places and planes and frames of the world, and can pretty much do anything in this moment because he is omnipresent like a god.
Ninth: Note how Eighth is similar to Odin, World Tree, Baldur--my understanding of which all stems from reading and rereading American Gods, but sacrificing a son on a tree seems to lend divinity and great power, so Kellhus may have stepped into a vortex that temporarily ennabled the Heart thing.
Tenth: Along with eight, he raises his hands and seems to embrace the entire three seas, this linguistically fits with 'he was all things and all things were his.
Eleventh: perhaps most importantly, Kellhus describes his ability to move as 'inexplicable' More than that, he describes his movement as SOMETHING. That is to say, for a Dunyain to describe that something outside themselves moves them is a repudiation of everything it is to be Dunyain. If SOMETHING is moving Kellhus, it is likely to be related to the divine (which one I don't know). And along with this, Kellhus describes his ability to stand as "stood impossibly". Kellhus' perspective views these two things--his inexplicable movement and his impossible standing as the most remarkable thing of this section, all that radical, crazy, bizarre business with Serwe's heart? Kellhus describes that in perfectly matter of fact terms. Nothing remarkable there. Very interesting, that.
I just wonder, in as much as topoi hinge on the extreme misery of hundreds of thousands, whether strange effects could occur when someone is hinge of hope for hundreds of thousands.
Anyway, clearly teleporting (first shown by practitioners of the Psukhe - a magic based on passion) is possible. Instead of a whole teleport, it just teleports one organ from a still, dead body in a very known location to Kellhus's hand. Remember the psukhe would sometimes manifest around blind people in extremes of situation - blind people with absolutely no training. Weve got an extreme situation, I think, with the circumfix just behind him. And I'd be willing to think a theme of the book is some kind of blindness coming across him at that point (I mean, what's the whole 'he glimpsed Sarcelluses uncoiled face' bit?).
That's probably 90% of it.
4 & 11 are your most salient points, lockesnow. Thanks, by the way, interesting breakdown.
Everything else could just be description, ambiguity, or madness... on the part of Kellhus.
pg 118-127TDTCB, english small edition. Inrau's death.
I thought parts of this section were relevant to the discussion.
p112. Description of Onkis:
"At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by ancient Norsiar, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face - nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair. Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of this thought arose. She came before him"
p122 Inrau talking to the statue of Onkis
" 'Please . . . Speak to me.'
Nothing.
Tears branched across his face. He raised his arms, held them open until his shoulders burned.
'Anything!' he cried.
Run, his thoughts whispered. Run.
Such a coward! How could he be such a coward?
Something behind him. The sound of flapping wings! Like the flutter of clother among the towering pillars.
He turned his face to the shadowy cieling, searching with his ears. Another flutter. Somewhere up in the clerestory. His skin prickled.
Is that you?
No.
Always doubting. Why was he always doubting? "
p125. Inrau after he recalls 'the words'
"Turning with sorcerous speed, he punched two fingers through Mujonish's chain mail, crackled his breastbone, then seized his heart. He yanked his hand free, drawing a cord of glittering blood into the air. More impossible words. The blood burst into incandescent flame, following his sweeping hand towards the Synthese. Shrieking, the creature dove from the railing into emptiness. Blinding beads of blood cracked bare stone."
p124 the Synthese
" 'He knows this form is but a shell,' the Synthese said to Sarcellus, 'but I don't see Chigra within him.' The pea-sized eyes- little beads of sky blue glass - turned to Inrau. 'Hmm. Boy? You don't dream the Dream like the others, do you? If you did, you would recognize. Chigra never failed to recognize me."
Inrau is a Mandati that doesn't dream the Dream but can still cast sorcery. wtf is that about.
Lots of stuff about trees and Onkis. Maybe She was working through Kellhus?
So that section with Inrau is pretty interesting post AE series. It seems far more likely that he was actually being told to run by Onkis herself. Though that would imply that Onkis could see some kind of danger, which implies that a god could see the consult.
That doesn't fit with a cannon very well, nor does that fact that Inrau didn't undergo the grasping yet still knew 'the words'.
That whole section is worth a reread for those of you who haven't.
Anyways, it is very coincidental that there is all this important put on trees in this section, and in Kellhus's dilemma, and then at the end of both we have the "blood cracked bare stone" visualization. Someone once told me that there are no coincidences in books though, so maybe its a clue to something? But what? Is Kellhus/Serwe/Tree related to Inrau/Onkis/Tree in some metaphysical way?
This may warrant a new thread is it diverges away from the topic at hand though.
AlsoQuote from: Callan S.I just wonder, in as much as topoi hinge on the extreme misery of hundreds of thousands, whether strange effects could occur when someone is hinge of hope for hundreds of thousands.
I have wondered this many times and posted similar questions before to no avail. Fact is there is no evidence to support it. I think though that having an anti-topoi built on hope/happiness would be pretty cool. Like a heaven foil to hell.
Quote from: MadnessQuote from: Capt.Croakeranother thing,i have read no mention of Kellhus having seswathas apocalypse dreams,although he is a mandate.could be he is possessed by seswatha.........i can hardly wait for the unholy consult.this is worse than waiting for the last Dark Tower book(that book was the worst let down in my life)
Capt.Croaker, I feel like no one addressed this for you but Kellhus is the only person to get his hands on the Gnosis without completing the ritual Grasping, where Mandatemust hold Seswatha's Heart to bind them to the Dreams... Oddly topical, that.(click to show/hide)
thanks,i'll take your word for it.i must have missed that somehow............... :cry:
Inrau just knows the basics of the gnosis - he just does a hand to hand attack, after all. Not some far reaching, wide ranging attack that slices whole units into cubes.QuoteSo that section with Inrau is pretty interesting post AE series. It seems far more likely that he was actually being told to run by Onkis herself. Though that would imply that Onkis could see some kind of danger, which implies that a god could see the consult.Good spotting, Wilshire!
That doesn't fit with a cannon very wellQuoteAnyways, it is very coincidental that there is all this important put on trees in this section, and in Kellhus's dilemma, and then at the end of both we have the "blood cracked bare stone" visualization. Someone once told me that there are no coincidences in books though, so maybe its a clue to something? But what? Is Kellhus/Serwe/Tree related to Inrau/Onkis/Tree in some metaphysical way?Don't forget the twig that shows up near the start of Kellhus's journey, which he looks at blankly (does not get it), but then finds again just beforeand sees a green branch on the twig, and seems to understand this time.(click to show/hide)
Yeah there is no doubt that there are at least a lot of references to trees. The Inrau scene is just another example, and it provides us with a deity that is closely associated with trees.
How much do we know about Onkis? Is she special somehow, or maybe Ajoli's sister or some such?
pg 475 TTT english hardcover edition:QuoteOnkis - The Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers. She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called "shakers" belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where they devotees ritually strive to be "possessed" by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the legendary Nonman Mansion of Siol, though no linked has been established).
A few things that jump out right away:
"Portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men"
"Her symbol is the Copper Tree (Which also happens to be the device of the legendary Nonman Mansion of Siol"
Which was Siol again? And who's Mansion did Moe and Kell have their encounter?
It's never mentioned explicitly, Capt.Croaker. Something it seems we're supposed to extrapolate - also stuff that Bakker clarified on Zombie Three Seas.
I've always been about Onkis telling Inrau to run in TDTCB and that only AE could have primed us for that truth. However, it's likely Onkis can see Aurang and the other Ensoulled members of the Consult.Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006This question really morphed!
Yes, Inrau IS damned. And this is the basis of his conversion. There's always hope that the scriptures just overlooked some kind of loophole, or that by praying real hard...
Part of the problem is that we see Inrau primarily through Achamian, and if you think about it, Achamian tends not to go into the details of his damnation - or that of any of those he loves. For instance, why doesn't he ever wonder about Inrau's soul? This omission becomes more and more explicit the more implicated Achamian becomes in Kellhus's world. Think of TTT. I wanted this to be the one thing he cannot grasp without the protection of vague intellectual abstraction.
Check out the thread: Inrau's Sorcery[/b] (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1005) for more speculative tidbits - though, none other by Bakker, like unJon's quote about Denotaries...
However, I know there's direct quotation elsewhere about the Grasping... can't find it though :(.
EDIT: I realize I'm hardly addressing everything but Siol, Wilshire, is one of Cu'jara Cinmoi's Mansions of the Nation of Injor-Niyas, of which Ishterebinth is a second Mansion. We know that Nin'janjin ruled the Nonman nation of Viri, which controlled two Mansions to the north of Ishterebinth, whereas Cu'jara Cinmoi ruled three to Viri's south.
I guess if the gods fight each other, then even if some can see, it doesn't mean the rest listen.
I think that quote about Inrau strongly implies that sorcery really does cause damnation.
I think that my theory on bruising the onta being a surefire way of attracting the interest of demonic interest is a strong contender for as to why. Which certainly leaves the Psukhe as *possible* way to weild sorcery and escape damnation - (probably metaphysicaly independant of Fane's associated religious teachings)...
@ Wilshire - I believe the assertion is that the hundred are blind to the no-god. From Shae's PoV in the False Dawn we are led to believe that consult are free of the influence of the gods. That is they can't influnce or predict their actions because the IF has completely blackened their souls. Think of it as little moving black spots that gobble up their followers - Onkis can't intervene directly, she can't tell what they are going to do but she can tell where they are if one of her followers are there and so can warn Inrau...
Furthermore, the Celmoman prophecy 100% flies in the face of that idea (and a lot of other semi-canon metaphysics).
Tangentaly, think of how the Storks track the Sranc. Storks do not have a soul either, but Yatwer(?) can use them to track Sranc as extensions of her awareness. Similarly, the No-god can use Sranc as extensions. Why does Yatwer need to track the Sranc? Because she doesn't know what they are going to do. Not only are they souless, but also free of the influence of the outside (TDTCB)... For a being that exists out of time they must certainly look like lies.
Meanwhile, on topic, we have quoted the scene where Khellus produces Serwe's heart. But I think it's important to attend to the circumstances of how they are taken and bound to the Circumfix to appreciate how impossible it is for even Khellus to acquire and hide Serwe's heart via sleight of hand. Refer two chapters before that scene iirc.
Tangents are how we do, Curethan.(click to show/hide)
pg524 TWP, english small edition, very end of chapter Twenty Two,Serwe's POV:QuoteShe felt rough hands pull her back, and an ache such as she'd never suffered as they puller her from his embrace. My heart!. They tear me from my heart!Italics from text.
"He's the God!" she shrieked. "Can't you see? He's the God!"
.....
Someone pulled her wailing son from her arms, another heart gone. Another ache.
....
The flash of sunlight across a knife. Sarcellus's knife. Sounds. Celebratory and horrified.
Serwe felt her life spill across her breasts... She raised her hands and beads of wine fell from her outstretched fingers.
...
p525QuoteYou are innocence, sweet Serwe, the one heart I need not teach"Italics from text
Last flare of sunlight, drowsy, as though glimpsed by a child stirring from dreams beneath an airy tree.
Innocence, Serwe
The limb vaulted canopy, growing darker, warm-woollen like a shroud. No more sun
You are the mercy you seek
But my baby, my -
pg 529, Chapter 23, Esmenet's POV:Quote
Before roaring mobs, Incheiri Gotian had stripped Kellhus of his clothing, then whipped him with cedar branches until he'd bled from a hundred places, Afterward, they bound this bleeding body to Serwe's nude corpse, ankle to ankle, wrist to wrist, face to face. Then they lashed the two of them, limbs outstretched, to a great bronze ring, which they hoisted and chained - upside down no less - to the winding girth of Umiaki's lowest and mightiest limb. Esmenet had wailed her voice to nothing.
pg 525, at the very beginning of chapter Twenty Three, the quote:
"For Men, no circle is ever closed. We walk ever in spirals." - Drusas Achamian, The compendium of the first holy war.
One more thing, it was Dawn then Serwe was killed, just thought it was interesting she should see the sun go out when it was in fact getting brighter. Not something noteworthy on its own, as of course everything was fading and she was losing her vision as her blood poured out onto the ground. It is though the opposite of the Celmomian prophesy, where the dieing man saw the sun flare at sunset as he was dieing.
Madness, that seems quite the leap.
From my (admittedly erratic) memory;(click to show/hide)
Wilshire - thanks buddy. Especially the first bit quoted, Khellus is her heart - lampshading perhaps? And it seems like Sarcellus cut her throat then she was beaten by the crowd. Not a lot of surgically removing organs or apple coring hearts going on there.
sorry but uh... lampshading?
Sorry
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)
;)
the most important part of the article
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lampshade-hanging_OotS_5519.gif
But yeah I guess it's possible.
Curethan:(click to show/hide)
My special talent is that people will often prefer the option that disagrees with mine. (negative charisma modifier :) ) Thus that became the 'official' explanation.This is amazing.
It's hilarious in the sense that's it's laughably stupid.
The Bakker thread I looked at was fantasizing that his career will fizzle out after TUC.
Yeah, what's worse is that they won't shut up about it, and they apparently think it's _HILARIOUS_ even though it's neither funny, nor clever, nor witty.it is kinda clever and this is all it was intended to be originally: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull+it+out+of+my+ass
"Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe,[1] is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism."
Ok well so far there seems to be two options for Kellhus and the heart:
1. Kellhus performed a miracle.
2. Kellhus has the largest anal cavity in Earwa - HITB
Very nice :)
Not sure I'd say nonmen have soft bones, but otherwise seems self consistent.
QuoteOk well so far there seems to be two options for Kellhus and the heart:
1. Kellhus performed a miracle.
2. Kellhus has the largest anal cavity in Earwa - HITB
3. Moenghus was standing next to him using an invisibility spell and he handed him the heart.
Roamer, I think tearing a spare heart out would leave a mark. ;)
Roamer, I think tearing a spare heart out would leave a mark. ;)
Maybe that is the example of Prophet healing we have yet to see!
I just wanted to post a fully formed and supported alternative to the HITB theory. On a serious note I fully expect it will be a metaphysical miracle brought on by Kellhus.
Locke has posted some interesting thoughts over on the other Forum regarding Serwe that seem pertinent to this discussion. Will extract some of them later today when home from work.