The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:43:00 am
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I'm sure comparisons between Bakker and Tolkien have been made before (Cil-Aujas and Moria, the dragon in "The Hobbit", and so on), but this is one I haven't noticed before. I just re-read "The Silmarillion" yesterday, and noticed this bit about Sauron corrupting an island kingdom from the inside and creating a new religion, eventually leading to God punishing them and destroying their realm.
When I read that part, the similarity to Kellhus just struck me. No way Bakker didn't get inspiration from Tolkien's story.
Did anyone else notice this likeness between Sauron and the Dunyain?
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Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power (in Tolkien case Evil is an absolute, that's not true in Earwa, but the Inchoroi are the closest thing to a proper race of darklords, I suppose), and the provoked the doom of their people.
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Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power
Yeah. Although what I remember, from the Silmarillion chapter, is that the Numenoreans never actually got immortality from Sauron, he just used this as a way to manipulate them.
The Nonmen remind me more of the Nazgul, who were granted an eternal life but weren't biologically made for it, ending up as insane and undead wraiths.
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Texas sharpshooter fallacy stuff maybe?
When its a tribute it tends to hit you in the face, like Cil'Aujis/Moria.
Every epic fantasy is going to have enough tangentals to enable these kind of comparisons.
Leaving aside the numerous distintions that divide the plot points you have related here - Sauron's motivations vs the Dunyain - God as an active judge vs whatever Bakker's version of God ends up as etc etc
Sorry, I don't really see it beyond the superficial surface similarities. They are just common fantasy plot tropes - corruption vs judgement, the price of immortality. You could easily pick a dozen others from various myths and fairy stories.
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you're right...that's why I've spoken of analogy and not of tribute
Anyway I like this kind of similarities, so for me they're a plus on the series.
Not all the similarities clearly are intentionals, but seeing how many times bakker has reinterpreted some Tolkien's statement in an original way (Elves/Nonmen, Orc/Sranc just to cite the most obvious) I always wonder.
In TTT Achamian realize Khellus is a false prophet because despite all his powers, intuitions and nice words he cannot heal people (Xinemus in particular)...this could be seen a reverse of a theme in the LotR, sice Aragorn is first recognized to be a King beacause of his healing powers. More likely, Jesus is the template for both of them.
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Ah fairy nuff.
Akka is himself an inversion of the wise wizard controlling the plot from the sidelines in PON.
He never has a clue what is going on until its pointed out to him... e.g. spends so much time tripping over clues about the skin spies and the consult, gets played hard by Kellhus - cedes the gnosis, loses his GF and then a crazy barbarian has to point out the fact that he's getting manipulated and instead of wiseing up, protecting his interests and getting what he wants he goes off in a big hissy.
Here's some Bakker/Tolkien character comparison from the horse's mouth for ya ;)
Kellhus is an inversion of 'the Young Man who would be King.' My UK editor calls him the 'Anti-Frodo.' He is of course, far more than that besides.
Cnaiur is the All-conquering Barbarian (who cannot conquer himself).
Achamian is the Wise Sorcerer (who continually fools himself).
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Aside from the comparison of the plot and characters in Tolkien's and Bakker's works, the geographical and cultural similarities were the first ones, which catched my eye in TSA.
The whole shape of Eärwa remind me plainly of Beleriand and the realms beyond. For example, Golgotterath are placed similar to Morgoth's Angband. The dusty plains of Agongorea are like the plains of Anfauglith. The dying race of the nonmen and the dying elves of Tolkien's world.
Some of the epic fights of the nonmen and the consult are similar to the fights between Morgoth and the elves of Beleriand ( Sranc pouring out of the Yimaleti-Mountains like the Orcs out of the Iron Mountains near Angand )
I like it a lot, how Bakker creates allusions involving Tolkiens Middle-Earth. He makes his world equally epic in my opinion, but also a lot darker and more interesting.
Tolkien's world shines like a perfect, clear crystal, alight with tales of legendary heroism, standing on a white pedestal in a wide, sunlit hallway, many visitors gazing upon it everyday.
But Bakker's world is an eerie stone, found in an old, decayed ruin deep in the woods by a lonely thoughtful person, old and unknown carvings scratched in his dark surface.
And I like eerie stones better than clear crystals ;)
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Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power
Yeah. Although what I remember, from the Silmarillion chapter, is that the Numenoreans never actually got immortality from Sauron, he just used this as a way to manipulate them.
The Nonmen remind me more of the Nazgul, who were granted an eternal life but weren't biologically made for it, ending up as insane and undead wraiths.
Always wonder what hold the Nonmen had that the Consult couldn't simply kill them as they treated them. Particularly time bombs. Granted the womb plague was one, or seems one, but unless the nonmen know about their internal structures, it's not hard to just make a blood clot happen here or there and boom, gone.
Could be a consult thing though - less efficient, but they are may passionate about stopping babies (the no god does this as well).
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Just a thought, Callan, but you could really reframe this whole thing as, "whoops, I didn't think the females of your species mattered" (Inchoroi), if we didn't, supposedly, know the Consult's goals.
+1 for thread. Had to be done.
Also, +1 Davias. Your descriptions about reading Bakker are teh awesome :D.
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Tolkien's world shines like a perfect, clear crystal, alight with tales of legendary heroism, standing on a white pedestal in a wide, sunlit hallway, many visitors gazing upon it everyday.
But Bakker's world is an eerie stone, found in an old, decayed ruin deep in the woods by a lonely thoughtful person, old and unknown carvings scratched in his dark surface.
And I like eerie stones better than clear crystals ;)
I was looking for a way to encapsulate the tonal differences between traditional fantasy like LoTR and Bakker's brand, and I think this does the job perfectly. Kudos.
If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa. WHAT DO YOU SEE? etc.
hobbits -> rape aliens. QED
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If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa.
As our heroes are overcome by exhaustion, on the slopes of Mount Doom:
Shaeönanra: Do you remember home, Mr. Aurang? It'll be spring soon. And every room in the Ark will be full of the sound of new screams. And the fresh captives will be skull-raped and crying out in joy. And all the young Sranc will be growing up...and swallowing their first loads of black semen. Do you remember the salty taste of semen?
Aurang: No, Shae. I can't recall the taste of semen... nor the sound of screams... nor the touch of a phallus. I'm naked in the dark, with nothing, no veil... between me and eternal damnation. I can see it with my waking eyes!
Shaeönanra: Then let us be rid of it, once and for all! Come on, Mr. Aurang. I can't carry it for you... but I can carry you!
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+1 Auriga
A crazy picture swells in my head, were the two of them copulating on the small rock over the lava pit, Gollum stand gaping at their side, gawking like a frog, the One Ring completely forgotten :lol:
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As our heroes are overcome by exhaustion, on the slopes of Mount Doom:
Shaeönanra: Do you remember home, Mr. Aurang? It'll be spring soon. And every room in the Ark will be full of the sound of new screams. And the fresh captives will be skull-raped and crying out in joy. And all the young Sranc will be growing up...and swallowing their first loads of black semen. Do you remember the salty taste of semen?
Aurang: No, Shae. I can't recall the taste of semen... nor the sound of screams... nor the touch of a phallus. I'm naked in the dark, with nothing, no veil... between me and eternal damnation. I can see it with my waking eyes!
Shaeönanra: Then let us be rid of it, once and for all! Come on, Mr. Aurang. I can't carry it for you... but I can carry you!
Nonsense. Aurang would never consent to throwing away a perfectly good cock ring into a volcano.
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A subtle one in The Thousandfold Thought. One character, ruminating on a birdlike abomination, speaks of "nepenthe," cries out "Bird! Devil!" and comments that the bird is like a "demon dreaming" - all lines from Poe's The Raven.
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If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa. WHAT DO YOU SEE? etc.
Is the No-God literally asking the all-seeing Gods what they are experiencing? Perhaps to gauge how good a job it is doing at severing Earwa from the outside?
"TELL ME. WHAT AM I?"
The No-God is challenging or taunting the Gods here :p
As an aside, The Two Towers is playing on Fox right now.
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Achamian = Smeagol
Seswatha = Gollum
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Moved for relevance - and cause it is a worthwhile topic in it's own right. Hope that's kewl.
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Indeed, I thought this thread existed but I didn't see it anywhere.
I also think that Bakker is the sort who would find the frodo model of hero boring, but would be fascinated by the dual personality possibilities in making a Gollum/Smeagol the hero.
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Indeed. Sarl seems to be going to satisfy Gollum in some regard, especially with the Captain braided to his beard and the whole dead bouncing thing - though that might as easily refer to Moenghus and Meppa as Mimara's child and the Captain.
Also - since I've found a Silmarillion again and I've been perusing PON wiki:
Endless Stair (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Endless_Stair) - Great Medial Screw
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Speculated this before on Westeros, but I've wondered if the Inverse Fire has some kind of thematic link to Tolkien's Secret Fire (being, perhaps, the anathema of life, that which destroys souls, and that perhaps the No-God's carapace is a method of mobilizing the Fire itself). In any case, I do tend to believe that the Inverse Fire is more than just a way of experiencing Damnation, based on the odd, almost reverent-like quality the Consult treats it with.
And then of course there's the obvious connection between Morgoth's twisting and corruption of life, since he can't create it anew, and the Consult's Tekne, which is results in soulless lifeforms (they can't make new souls).
Also noted that the Nonmen seem like a combination of Elves and Dwarves, what with their subterranean lifestyle and reputation for craftsmanship.
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Also noted that the Nonmen seem like a combination of Elves and Dwarves, what with their subterranean lifestyle and reputation for craftsmanship.
Good point. Most authors tend to recreate their own versions of dwarves and elves, but much less often are the two concepts combined.
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Like the thoughts.
Are the Anasurimbor stand-ins for the Kings of Numenor, what with their Nonmen blood and partially extended lifespan?
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Yes
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Noldor and the Nonmen?
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Concerning the the mix of man and nonman blood in the Anasurimbor line, having Bakker's Tolkien theme in mind, do you think that it is a coincidence that the terms dunyanin and dunedain look so alike? (the Dunedain are a man/elvish mix hiding for an extended period in time on the outskirts of Middle Earth, the Dunyanin breed a man/nonman mix while hiding for an extended period of time in a cave system).
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Concerning the the mix of man and nonman blood in the Anasurimbor line, having Bakker's Tolkien theme in mind, do you think that it is a coincidence that the terms dunyanin and dunedain look so alike? (the Dunedain are a man/elvish mix hiding for an extended period in time on the outskirts of Middle Earth, the Dunyanin breed a man/nonman mix while hiding for an extended period of time in a cave system).
Coincidences arn't nearly as fun as purpose. I like it.
EDIT:
I may have had this thought a few years ago but never brought it up. Or maybe it fits strikingly well and I just think I should have noticed it. Either way, awesome.
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Concerning the the mix of man and nonman blood in the Anasurimbor line, having Bakker's Tolkien theme in mind, do you think that it is a coincidence that the terms dunyanin and dunedain look so alike? (the Dunedain are a man/elvish mix hiding for an extended period in time on the outskirts of Middle Earth, the Dunyanin breed a man/nonman mix while hiding for an extended period of time in a cave system).
Awesome catch, I never would have noticed that but it definitely seems legit. I'm already of the mind that Dunyain are part Nonman, in some way.
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goes back to the originators of the anasurimbor line, the rape of omindalea led to the birth of sanna jepthera "two heart" iirc, a nonman, human hybrid.
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goes back to the originators of the anasurimbor line, the rape of omindalea led to the birth of sanna jepthera "two heart" iirc, a nonman, human hybrid.
I cannot fathom why some of those entries were not published. Lets hope for an expanded encyclopedia.
Anyway, that made me wonder, was that an isolated incident? Or was it important only because it was with an Anasurimbor, which was presumably something like a royal family at the time?
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Kellhus as a Machiavellan Aragorn (a prince appearing out of nowhere).
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Galbrod, I'm thinking of writing a Machiavellian reading of TSA, thus far. I think there's a profound amount of overlap, moreso than many other philosophers/political scientists. If you have thoughts, let me know.
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I had given DtCB to one of my neighbors to read, around the time TTT was published. I had described it to him as having a heavy Tolkien influence, but as if it was reflected in a cracked funhouse mirror.
Even the map of Earwa is extremely evocative of the maps of Middle-earth.
After reading the series, he observed the same relationship between Bakker and Tolkien as in the Phillip Pullman books (Golden Compass, etc) and Paradise Lost - not just influence, but a level of response that is almost symbiosis.
Since almost all of the readers of Bakker's work have been consuming Tolkien for decades, he is able to use our preconceptions as an additional delivery mechanism for his story. You might even say we had been... conditioned... to be receptive in this manner.
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Since almost all of the readers of Bakker's work have been consuming Tolkien for decades, he is able to use our preconceptions as an additional delivery mechanism for his story. You might even say we had been... conditioned... to be receptive in this manner.
I think Bakker could also use this to "trick" readers into reading whats not there. He seems to be into that sort of thing.
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Since almost all of the readers of Bakker's work have been consuming Tolkien for decades, he is able to use our preconceptions as an additional delivery mechanism for his story. You might even say we had been... conditioned... to be receptive in this manner.
I think Bakker could also use this to "trick" readers into reading whats not there. He seems to be into that sort of thing.
+1 - I agree.
I don't think it's a trick so much a natural occurrence in writing Literature and specifically tackling certain aspects of genre. It's all about how many connotations we share with an author or how many we can come to understand.
Lol... a buddy of mine once summed up (L)iterature (big L) with an analogy to rap. When someone name drops a bunch in their verses and you catch more of a rapper's references, it gives you a boost of satisfaction, moreso when those in your communities who listen to the same music don't get the references. The more name dropping you sneak in, the more writing equals (L)iterature ;).
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@ Meyna - Mog is taunting the gods, awesome!
@ Madness - are you suggesting that Mimara is going to give birth to the captain?!?!
Another comparison? Morgoth bound outside the world vs something in the Outside? Sauron's actions in Numenor, if they ultimately meant to bring Morgoth back, parallel Consult summoning Mog. There's something in Tolkien about the end of days and the release of Morgoth; final war and stuff. Celmomian Prophecy
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@ Madness - are you suggesting that Mimara is going to give birth to the captain?!?!
Sometimes the dead bounce...
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@ Madness - are you suggesting that Mimara is going to give birth to the captain?!?!
Sometimes the dead bounce...
It's going to be a weird birth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr216HObUIA
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I actually lol'd
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;)
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Meorn wilderness = Forbidden forest/Fangorn?
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The Mop :).
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The WLW's too-be-broken blade vs Aragorn's reforged broken blade.
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I dislike this, or any other, topic that compares X to Tolkein. That is all :)
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Lol. Do you also secretly hate our conversations about TSA/Dune :(?
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Nah all other comparisons are fine.
Comparing things to Tolkien just bothers me for some reason... Probably because all the world sees Tolkien as the unequivocal measuring stick, and I dislike this. Even Asimov and/or Herbert, though widely appraised and highly regarded, are not held to the same mystical standard that Tolkien is so often afforded.
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I agree that Tolkien shouldn't be the measuring stick. I still like him though. :)
Would this be the right place for a Bakker vs Beowulf convo? Since Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?
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Nah all other comparisons are fine.
Comparing things to Tolkien just bothers me for some reason... Probably because all the world sees Tolkien as the unequivocal measuring stick, and I dislike this. Even Asimov and/or Herbert, though widely appraised and highly regarded, are not held to the same mystical standard that Tolkien is so often afforded.
Lol.
I agree that Tolkien shouldn't be the measuring stick. I still like him though. :)
Would this be the right place for a Bakker vs Beowulf convo? Since Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?
Yeah, MG, do it up. How is it Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?
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Of the top of my head, all I can conjure is that Beowulf was big for Tolkien, and there's got to be a connection between Grendel/Grendel's Mom/Dragon and Bakker's monsters...at least it feels like there is a connection. Plus, Beowulf is so uber-warrior, he comes off as a Cnaiur or Yalgrotta. It's been a while since I read the dang book.
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Also Tolkein mirrors Beowolf's long hand description of names/families, so I'm told.
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This may shed light:
http://www.amazon.com/Beowulf-Translation-Commentary-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0544442784/?ie=UTF8&qid=1401157652&sr=8-1&keywords=tolkien+beowulf
I have no idea if I'll read it in this life, tho
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I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.
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I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.
Not sure what to make of this, PP.
Cannot detect any creepy innuendo or sly trolling.
1/10
(But seriously, that is an interesting factoid)
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I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.
Not only that but they were created via grafting and were forced to bow their heads into the 'irreversible fire' b4 migrating past a cafe named "Bacon of the Gates"
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I was re-reading WLW last week. And it struck me that Mimara opening The Judging Eye, and her descriptions of the Scalpoi therein, is very evocative of the Wraith-world that exists in Middle-Earth. Which makes The Judging Eye... The One Ring?
Also, this has nothing to do with Tolkien, but I noticed that a member of House Biaxi dies in every volume of PON. But none die in The Aspect-Emperor. So... I predict that three Biaxis are going to die in TUC.
Revelations!
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I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.
Not sure what to make of this, PP.
Cannot detect any creepy innuendo or sly trolling.
1/10
(But seriously, that is an interesting factoid)
Tolkien was a devout Christian and it informed his work. There's really nothing more to it, I don't think.
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Tolkien was a devout Christian and it informed his work. There's really nothing more to it, I don't think.
I was referring to PP's humorous quorum posts. ;) Might have missed my mark.
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Necroing this because I think I caught a Tolkien allusion of sorts.
Cujara-Cin'moi = Ar-Pharazon of the Silmarillion
Reasoning: Both are kings of vast might and vaster pride who bring doom on themselves and their people by having enough hubris to think that they could deal on equal terms with eldritch abominations.
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What's most interesting to me is to look beyond the surface similarities to think about what Bakker has done differently with these elements.
For instance, there are obvious similarities between Nonmen and elves (come before humans, teach some of them who are thus raised above the others, immortal, their civilization waning as humanity waxes, twisted by the Big Evil into orcs/sranc, etc), but the differences are what fascinate me. In Tolkien, the elves, with their immortality, are kind of the wiser, more patient "big brothers" of humanity. While the Nonmen do teach humanity, they also inflict a terrible slavery on them, whether the pits we see in Cil-Aujus or the Emwamma. The thing that struck me first and hardest, though, was the effect of immortality: Nonmen aren't "wise" so much as alien to us; and, of course, they end up being driven insane because of the way that memory degrades over the course of a lifetime. Even their propensity toward betrayal, especially when we're talking about the Erratics: it's like their long lives make the lives of others inconsequential, just a tool to be used to spark their memories.
Or how about Achamian vs. Gandalf? I like the analogy drawn between him in The Aspect Emperor and Gandalf in the Hobbit, but of course it's the differences that are striking. Gandalf is genuinely interested in the success of the quest, while it's a tool for Achamian. In fact, Gandalf genuinely cares about the members of the party, especially including Bilbo, who is basically sent along for his own personal growth. There's a benevolence there with Gandalf, who additionally is kind of "above the fray" and also a bit of deus ex machina with the ways he leaves and returns. Akka, by contrast, has to be saved more often than he saves the party, despite the fact that he does indeed have incredible power at his command. And although it pricks his conscience, at the end of the day he's using them as an ends to achieve a means.
(Thorin Oakenshield and Lord Kosoter, though: pretty much the same.)
Staying with Akka, take him back to the first trilogy. There's a certain similarity between him and LotR Gandalf as well. They're both out to save the world, with deeper knowledge than any of the human characters have, they're both, to some extent, doubted by the powerful, and obviously both wizards. But Gandalf is this sort of wise, knowing guide and mentor who's not QUITE always right, but he's certainly always GOOD, he's always motivated by a higher purpose (he's sent by the Valar to help men and elves, and he remains true to that mission). Compare that to Akka: yes, he's basically a good guy, but he's full of uncertainty, full of mixed motives and just generally a lot more HUMAN than Gandalf ever seems to be. He screws up his personal relationships, he screws up his world-saving duty... we have to be reminded every so often that he IS actually a total badass, because he doesn't show it all that often. Anyway, all of that plays into the differences in the kind of story Bakker is telling. Clear good and evil vs. a very muddy morality. Authority figures who can be trusted to there being very few real authority figures, and each of them having an agenda.
Anyway, just some off-the-cuff thoughts.
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One obvious parallel that I always got was the Bashrag/Balrog.
I got Mordor vibes from multiple northern locations in TGO, with the most prominent being Ishual, especially with how it was the end of Akka and Mimara's arduous quest. Their resigned, exhausted interactions when first arriving reminded me a lot of Sam and Frodo. I also was feeling like the Survivor and the Boy were going to take over a Gollum role when they were first introduced.
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One obvious parallel that I always got was the Bashrag/Balrog.
I got Mordor vibes from multiple northern locations in TGO, with the most prominent being Ishual, especially with how it was the end of Akka and Mimara's arduous quest. Their resigned, exhausted interactions when first arriving reminded me a lot of Sam and Frodo. I also was feeling like the Survivor and the Boy were going to take over a Gollum role when they were first introduced.
The Bashrag, I thought, despite the homophonic nature of things, was more parallel to the troll in the room with Balin's tomb, with then the Nonman king being that Balrog-equivalent. Cleric kind of played the Gandalf role against the Sranc and Bashrags, except, you know, surviving and rejoining them right away. Still, everybody thought both of them were goners and they both made it out in their own ways.
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Great post, Parsh.
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse :).
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Great post, Parsh.
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse :).
Thanks and thanks. I made my way here by way of the podcast, by way of the Facebook group, by way of the Grimdark Facebook group.
Once, long ago, I tried to register on the Three Seas forum, but I never got approved and wandered away, disconsolate.
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Awesome journey here 8)!
Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.
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Awesome journey here 8)!
Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.
Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.
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Awesome journey here 8)!
Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.
Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.
Lol - appreciate the sentiment.
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Awesome journey here 8)!
Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.
Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.
I think more that some poster will try to become an authority themselves, eventually. Usually not a moderate one.
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I think the admin/mods here try to be moderate. Let us know if we are otherwise :) .
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I've been meaning to write this for quite some time but I kept putting it off because I knew it would be a long one. As I mentioned in the reading thread, I capped off our Second Apocalypse reread by going through Lord of the Rings again, in the time leading up to The Great Ordeal. After reading the two in such close proximity, I have to agree with Parsh that the differences come across more than the similarities. I've seen a lot of criticism that TSA is arguably too derivative of Dune and LotR but I've come to believe the series genuinely stands on its own - there's just too many scenes, characters, and themes that simply couldn't exist in Herbert's or Tolkien's writings. That said, I think Bakker ultimately uses the same narrative frame as LotR: an internal moral struggle set against the backdrop of a fantasy apocalypse.
Much like The Second Apocalypse, the Lord of the Rings is fundamentally about the conflict between meaning and nothing.
I think it's a misconception that the legions of Mordor are the primary antagonists - evil resolves itself in Tolkien's world with its fractious, self-deating narcissism. Although Sauron is the titular character of the trilogy, he never once physically enters the narrative. Similar to how many theologians view the devil, he isn't a material personification of evil but rather he exists as rationalization, the way we trick ourselves into pursuing our own interests at the expense of others. There are several key plot points upon which the fate of the world truly hinges and it isn't the climactic battles but rather the struggle within the ranks of the protagonists. Tolkien time and again returns to a technique wherein he places characters at moral crossroads and they visualize the consequences of their actions. Whenever this happens, it's a red flag for the reader as to what's really going on and it reveals itself in these key events:
1. In the barrow downs, where Frodo is the only Hobbit who awakens and he considers escaping to save himself and doom his friends to the wights.
2. In Lothlorien, where Frodo offers the ring to Galdriel and she sees herself becoming the Queen of Middle Earth.
3. At the hills/waters of Parth Galen and Amon Hen, where Boromir tries to take the ring from Frodo, becoming a powerful king in his own right.
4. Twice at Isengard, first when Saruman reveals his alliance with Sauron and again when he entreats Gandalf to come into the tower so they can discuss how to set the world to rights.
5. All throughout the Minas Tirith arc, where Denethor refuses the counsel of his allies and eventually resolves to euthanize himself and his son.
6. The series climax inside of Mt. Doom, where Frodo ultimately fails the quest and resolves to keep the ring for himself.
7. Throughout the entire narrative, when the Shire Hobbits, Wizards, Elves, Ents, Rohirrim, and undead army are reluctant to confront Sauron and Saruman out of their own mistrust for eachother.
At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands, under the rationale that what they are doing is somehow earned, righteous, just, in the interest of the greater good, or otherwise the only reasonable course of action. While all of these motives masquerade under the guise of meaning, purpose, and reason, the reader in fact knows these are empty rationalizations covering their pure, base, and animalistic impulse. Tolkien is intentionally invoking the nihilistic implications of Bentham's Calculus, Freud's Pleasure Principle, Nietzche's Will to Power, and Darwin's Survival of the Fittest. In Bakker's terms, it's the biological mechanism which often attenuates his Blind Brain Theory.
Tolkien explicitly uses the same words when describing the Eye of Sauron and the Windows of Minas Morgul as Bakker does to describe the Consult and its skin spies - a gaze into oblivion, nothingness and void. While Tolkien vehmently denied his works were an allegory for World War II, I personally believe they were at least a subconscious parallel to his experience in World War I, where grand boasts of nationalism and ideology were in fact a mask for the last gasp of imperialism. Much like the fractious Orcs of Mordor, WWI was a self-defeating venture, as it ultimately triggered the collapse of every participant's government and directly led to the decolonization of the third world.
The tracks between whim and brutality are many and inscrutable in Men, and though they often seem to cut across the impassable terrain of reason, in truth, it is reason that paves their way. Ever do Men argue from want to need and from need to fortuitous warrant. Ever do they think their cause the just cause. Like cats chasing sunlight thrown from a mirror, they never tire of their own delusions.
^ This is the opening to the first chapter of The Judging Eye and I believe it encapsulates what TSA and LotR are truly about.
TLDR:
Christopher Tolkien once explained that his father was writing about the evil of what he called "the machine," the way people execute their will over nature and each other. So to bring it all together, I believe Tolkien was warning us about the morally destructive consequences of mechanized civilization in the 20th century and that Bakker took up his watch against the same threat as we embark on posthumanism in the 21st century. However, The Lord of the Rings ultimately argues that morality is in fact real, that there is more to humanity than self-interest and biological function. At this point, I'm not sure we'll get the same hopeful conclusion to The Second Apocalypse. Even if we don't, I nevertheless hold that Bakker has already succeeded, and will continue to succeed, in providing insights into ourselves as we continue on the perilous path technology has laid out for human civilization.
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At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands
So what were they doing before those moments?
Going with some overall flow?
Maybe it's anti individualistic?
Always an ironic position for the lone author to take
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At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands
So what were they doing before those moments?
Going with some overall flow?
Maybe it's anti individualistic?
Always an ironic position for the lone author to take
"Taking matters into their own hands" was probably a bad choice of phrase. It's not necesarily anti-individualistic because they aren't expressing any kind of individualism at all - they're merely rationalizing their submission to base impulses, to advance their self-interest at the expense of others. In terms of the Second Apocalypse, it exposes the illusion of selfhood, because they are merely a machine reacting to circumstance and opportunity. This is why Tolkien describes Sauron and his surrogates as nothingness and explicitly distinguishes them from the simplicity of pure evil.
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they're merely rationalizing their submission to base impulses, to advance their self-interest at the expense of others.
So you're saying it's not individualism if it's in self interest and at the expense of others?
Or are you trying to say individualism is a superstitious term? Still seems valid to me, in as much as it's derived from 'individual' and clearly when the news reports yet another horrible car crash where someone died, I didn't die and as much we were individual from each other.
To me it seems more like Boromir is not being treated as enacting individualism because he went against the tribe. Went against the flow.
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Bolivar, that was a great post. Thanks for taking the time! Is there anything in there specifically you'd like to discuss? I'm not sure there's much for me to deconstruct without some guidance ;) .
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Thanks Wilshire!
I kinda put it all out there so I'm not sure if there's anything specific I'd want to focus on. It all actually reads like an incoherent mess now that I've come back to it after a few months so maybe some revising is in order.