[TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS

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Madness

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« on: July 28, 2016, 10:50:08 pm »
Previous thread here.

The dream sequences have always been my favorite part of the books. I think the dream sequences in TGO are by far the most compelling from the reinterpretation of the Celmomian Prophecy to the final sequence in which we glimpse the No-god. I was just wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on them, specifically the final one.
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Titan

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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2016, 10:57:17 pm »
The dreams in TGO are very interesting, to say the least (I liked the first one inside the horns of Golgotterath) - But has an explanation been given why Akka now have dreams that are *NOT* from the point of view of Seswatha?

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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2016, 11:07:27 pm »
Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.

Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.
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Cosi

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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2016, 11:27:55 pm »
If you can store Seswatha's memories in the heart, presumably you can store other people's. Or transfer them to Seswatha. My question is how he got Nau's memories when he (presumably) died in Golgotterath.

H

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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2016, 01:58:08 pm »
Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.

Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.

Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.

I don't particularly like the idea that Kellhus sent the Prophecy back to Celmomas, but I don't see any other possibility.  If that is true, then Kellhus is the author of his own Fate, which really makes no sense. 
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2016, 04:03:59 pm »
If you can store Seswatha's memories in the heart, presumably you can store other people's. Or transfer them to Seswatha. My question is how he got Nau's memories when he (presumably) died in Golgotterath.

Yeah, I really don't understand the mechanisms behind it. Perhaps they are deeper memories to be unlocked by any similar/worthy/whatever Mandate/Swayal from Seswatha's Heart. Or perhaps there is something more to Achamian's "Prophet of the Past" status.

Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.

Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.

Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.

Lol.

I don't particularly like the idea that Kellhus sent the Prophecy back to Celmomas, but I don't see any other possibility.  If that is true, then Kellhus is the author of his own Fate, which really makes no sense. 

Well... time paradoxes abound?

But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2016, 04:34:18 pm »
Well... time paradoxes abound?

But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).

Unless of course that isn't Gilgaol at all, but is Ajolki just messing with things, as per usual?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Madness

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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2016, 05:03:24 pm »
Well... time paradoxes abound?

But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).

Unless of course that isn't Gilgaol at all, but is Ajolki just messing with things, as per usual?

Lol. Truth.

I don't buy that Ajokli is pretending to be Gilgaol but I will accept that Gilgaol is also Ajokli - I realize it's a strange distinction to make (for the reasons of "the Four-Horned Brother" possibly reflecting Gilgaol's crown and his sibling status to Yatwer and that Ajokli finds Murder Most Holy and Gilgaol is the God of Death).

I don't know :).
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2016, 08:55:19 pm »
I know that I've been a stout defender of Seswatha as the man behind the scenes. As TAE has progressed, I am almost entirely certain that Anagke is behind Akka's dream, along with Akka and Mimara's journey. Mimara has a great quote about it in the beginning of the first Ishual chapter. I'll see if I can find it. I believe "God-entaglement" is abound in TAE. See, a God would be the perfect persona to make Akka a prophet of the past, as Anagke can see all of time.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 04:24:18 pm »
Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.

Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.

Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.

 

He does think of it though, later on in the chapter he thinks what it means to dream it now from the high kings eyes just when he is deciding to kill the Dunyain etc. seemed quite frantic about it.

themerchant

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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 04:25:47 pm »
I know that I've been a stout defender of Seswatha as the man behind the scenes. As TAE has progressed, I am almost entirely certain that Anagke is behind Akka's dream, along with Akka and Mimara's journey. Mimara has a great quote about it in the beginning of the first Ishual chapter. I'll see if I can find it. I believe "God-entaglement" is abound in TAE. See, a God would be the perfect persona to make Akka a prophet of the past, as Anagke can see all of time.

Mimara states in the book she "knows now" he is a prophet of the past. So he is entangled in some way.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 05:49:37 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?
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themerchant

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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 06:27:53 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I was going to add a bit on to the end of my post how Akka is bringing word of the past to the gods and mimara the present. Cants of calling need you to be asleep due to mechanics of being closer/nearer to the outside while sleeping. So that would be the best time for the outside to look in so to speak.

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2016, 07:11:28 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

That's a hell of a thought, Somnambulist.
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MSJ

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 03:29:00 am »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,