Earwa > The Almanac: TAE Edition
The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Blackstone:
--- Quote from: H on April 27, 2016, 10:22:30 am ---I don't doubt that the Pragma told him he might need to kill his father. That's just logical. I just don't buy that, setting out from Ishual, Kellhus definitely planned on killing him. It was a possibility, but not his definitive motive or plan.
I feel that he was only sure that it was necessary after the Circumflix, after grasping the Thousandfold Thought and finally after the incident with the leaf on the way to Kyudea. For all we know the Pragma could have been in on Moe's TT really; we've speculated before how the Pragma that received the Dreams removed themselves and the way that it is possible that this was because they knew they had to in order to deceive Kellhus about the "mission."
--- End quote ---
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.
H:
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 04:21:40 pm ---From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.
--- End quote ---
Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.
First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual. He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die. We really have no idea if they do or not.
Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point. So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him. That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow. That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas? Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.
Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks? We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son." Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked? Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...
Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain? The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.
Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place? Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual. And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him? Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?
That's all I could think of at the moment. To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.
Blackstone:
--- Quote from: H on April 27, 2016, 05:55:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 04:21:40 pm ---From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.
--- End quote ---
Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.
First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual. He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die. We really have no idea if they do or not.
Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point. So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him. That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow. That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas? Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.
Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks? We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son." Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked? Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...
Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain? The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.
Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place? Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual. And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him? Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?
That's all I could think of at the moment. To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.
--- End quote ---
You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.
As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.
2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).
4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.
5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.
You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D
H:
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 07:23:53 pm ---You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.
As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.
2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).
4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.
5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.
You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D
--- End quote ---
Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too. Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away. It could well be that it's exactly what it seems. I have doubts though.
I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair. But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.
The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani. Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me. It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind. There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
Blackstone:
--- Quote from: H on April 27, 2016, 07:50:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 07:23:53 pm ---You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.
As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.
2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).
4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.
5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.
You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D
--- End quote ---
Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too. Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away. It could well be that it's exactly what it seems. I have doubts though.
I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair. But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.
The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani. Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me. It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind. There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
--- End quote ---
I agree. I have no explanation as to why Moe was sent away in lieu of committing suicide. So perhaps there is something there.
Dunyain, in Kuiniuric (sp) just means "truth" IIRC. Naming his followers Zaudunyani (truth seeker?) doesn't mean he's going around telling everyone exactly what the Dunyain are. It's just a word in a "dead" language. No one would have any reason to think that the Dunyain exist as a group super human logic monks just because Kell names his followers Zaudunyani.
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