Earwa > The Almanac: TAE Edition
The Slog WLW - Chapter 14 [Spoilers]
H:
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 04:42:03 pm ---I see where we are diverging here. What do you think the TTT is?
To me, it is (over simplifying here) Kellhus saving mankind from the Consult and whatever are the implications of that (aspiration to godhood?). And if that's the case, then the TTT isn't a lie. When Kellhus says "a lesser falsehood" I think he means convincing people that he is a prophet/living god/what have you, and NOT his war with Golgotterath.
--- End quote ---
Well, I feel like Kellhus aspiration is the Absolute. It is, as Serwa says, being the God of Gods. I do not believe that Kellhus is out to avert the Second Apocalypse at all. In fact, he plans to bring it. Just not on the Consult's terms. The Consult version of the Apocalypse is fret with ruin, death, and the sealing of the world to the Outside. I feel like Kellhus' is with him rewriting meaning on Earwa, it's, as Bakker always discuses on his blog, a semantic apocalypse (I admit though, that the far-reaching implications of this are kind of lost to me). It could be that what makes Earwa special will be essentially lost to the domination of Kellhus though.
So, the Thousandfold Thought is a plan, crafted with lies but not exclusively. Sure, some of the parts of it are truth, but the whole body of it is a goad, a lie to achieve an end. Sure, he plans to defeat the Consult, but really because they are first, beyond his manipulation, and second, a threat to what he plans to achieve (if he becomes a God and they shut the world, he is cut off). I don't buy the savior talk, he is doing this for selfish reasons, just so happens that part of that happens to be incidentally good for humanity (not being killed by the Consult). The end result though, I'm not so sure is good though.
Blackstone:
--- Quote from: H on April 21, 2016, 05:52:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 04:42:03 pm ---I see where we are diverging here. What do you think the TTT is?
To me, it is (over simplifying here) Kellhus saving mankind from the Consult and whatever are the implications of that (aspiration to godhood?). And if that's the case, then the TTT isn't a lie. When Kellhus says "a lesser falsehood" I think he means convincing people that he is a prophet/living god/what have you, and NOT his war with Golgotterath.
--- End quote ---
Well, I feel like Kellhus aspiration is the Absolute. It is, as Serwa says, being the God of Gods. I do not believe that Kellhus is out to avert the Second Apocalypse at all. In fact, he plans to bring it. Just not on the Consult's terms. The Consult version of the Apocalypse is fret with ruin, death, and the sealing of the world to the Outside. I feel like Kellhus' is with him rewriting meaning on Earwa, it's, as Bakker always discuses on his blog, a semantic apocalypse (I admit though, that the far-reaching implications of this are kind of lost to me). It could be that what makes Earwa special will be essentially lost to the domination of Kellhus though.
So, the Thousandfold Thought is a plan, crafted with lies but not exclusively. Sure, some of the parts of it are truth, but the whole body of it is a goad, a lie to achieve an end. Sure, he plans to defeat the Consult, but really because they are first, beyond his manipulation, and second, a threat to what he plans to achieve (if he becomes a God and they shut the world, he is cut off). I don't buy the savior talk, he is doing this for selfish reasons, just so happens that part of that happens to be incidentally good for humanity (not being killed by the Consult). The end result though, I'm not so sure is good though.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I can see what you are saying, and you might be right and I wrong, but both of us are speculating, so neither of us knows if the TTT is a lie or truth.
MSJ:
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 04:07:34 pm ---
--- Quote from: MSJ on April 21, 2016, 03:42:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 03:22:36 pm ---I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I think I recall Maithanet looking directly at Kelmomas and then the last words. I think the inference is that he realizes something is up with Kelmomas and he wants Esmi to warn Kellhus. The line about he angel with the demon face is intriguing. Shouldn't it be the other way around though?
@H - How do we know the TTT is a lie?
--- End quote ---
Moe explains it in TTT, it's Viramsata. The lie made breath (ground).
--- End quote ---
Are we taking this at face value?
--- End quote ---
I'd say your right Blackstone, that the end result, defeating the Consult isn't a lie. Though, basically everything else is. Moe explains how Viramsata works and the world is full of it, Inrithism and Fanimry was his choices for explaining this. Kellhus gained his power and divinity by the Circumfix, a miracle. When we know it was no miracle, just a way he chose to gain said power. It was a choice, and a farce at that. So, while defeati g the Consult maybe the truth, everything else is a lie. Unless, you're of the opinion that belief effects reality on Earwa. That's another conversation though.
Blackstone:
--- Quote from: MSJ on April 22, 2016, 12:09:11 am ---
--- End quote ---
I'd say your right Blackstone, that the end result, defeating the Consult isn't a lie. Though, basically everything else is. Moe explains how Viramsata works and the world is full of it, Inrithism and Fanimry was his choices for explaining this. Kellhus gained his power and divinity by the Circumfix, a miracle. When we know it was no miracle, just a way he chose to gain said power. It was a choice, and a farce at that. So, while defeati g the Consult maybe the truth, everything else is a lie. Unless, you're of the opinion that belief effects reality on Earwa. That's another conversation though.
[/quote]
Yes! That is definitely another conversation.
I see what you're saying. But the sticking point for me, the reason I don't think you can say the TTT is a lie, is that it doesn't matter if he uses lies and manipulation to fulfill his mission. The lying is just a tactic used in the conflict. If the end goal of the TTT is a true end goal, then the TTT isn't a lie, it's a truth that uses everything at its disposal to come to fruition.
H:
--- Quote from: Blackstone on April 22, 2016, 03:12:15 pm ---Yes! That is definitely another conversation.
I see what you're saying. But the sticking point for me, the reason I don't think you can say the TTT is a lie, is that it doesn't matter if he uses lies and manipulation to fulfill his mission. The lying is just a tactic used in the conflict. If the end goal of the TTT is a true end goal, then the TTT isn't a lie, it's a truth that uses everything at its disposal to come to fruition.
--- End quote ---
Well, the thing for me is that Kellhus frames the Ordeal as a way to avert the Second Apocalypse, even though I can't recall him ever saying it. But people are sure assuming and acting on the assumption that it is. While I have zero doubt that Kellhus wants the Consult defeat and is actually trying to do so, I still don't buy that he is a savior of the world. I think he is just a new yoke, not necessarily a better one.
While the Consult is certainly not good for the world, I can't say I am buying Kellhus as being good for Earwa.
I'm definitely biased though. I've had a hunch that Kellhus is not a savior basically since reading TWP the first time. So, in the 11 years since then, I've been pretty stubborn on the hunch. But a hunch is remains, because the text is purposely ambiguous on it...
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