Earwa > The Unholy Consult

If Cish can see Souls via Third Sight, why couldn't they see skin spies...

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sciborg2:

--- Quote from: H on May 12, 2021, 08:52:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: sciborg2 on May 12, 2021, 06:20:51 am ---Do you agree with Madness that perhaps Big Moe just let Kellhus yammer on about discrepancies in voices while in truth the Cish easily rooted out the skin-spies?
--- End quote ---

Well, even Kellhus temper's his conjecture there:


--- Quote ---Then, about twelve years ago, you discovered the first of the Consult skin-spies—probably through discrepancies in their voices.
--- End quote ---

I don't think Kellhus really fully understands the Third Sight at this point (in fact, he might never really, since he couldn't ever experience it himself).


--- Quote from: sciborg2 on May 12, 2021, 06:20:51 am ---I think in line with what you are saying here is that what the Cish see has, to them, always correlated with souls. They perhaps see souls as entities with passions, intellect, etc. And before they never had reason to doubt this correlation.

Perhaps it's also the case that because they felt they could still see "souls" in the skin-spies they insisted that these were not biological machinery but magical artifacts made by the Scarlet Spires?
--- End quote ---

Well, I think that the Cishaurim leadership likely already had "reason" to suspect or be worried about the Scarlet Spires.  The only other group they'd likely suspect more would be the Imperial Saik and they likely had little reason to think they could pull off such a feat, simply because the Diamos is far more mysterious, in-world, as to what it might be able to do.  Being so beyond what the "usual" Anagogis could do, they are likely right in worrying about if it could well pull a soul from something.

In the end, I suspect this actually is a slight plot hole, but one easily hand-waved away.  It was the case that pre-"twelve years ago" the Consult rarely had reason to install skin-spies in Fanim lands, so there wasn't really much reason for concern by either party.  When Moe arrives though, his curiosity and general thoroughness means removal reaches a fever pitch, raising things to a new level for both the Cishaurim and the Consult.

--- End quote ---

I think since each of these tidbits are extra-textual it's easy enough to massage them into fitting the logic of the plot.

OTOH with a "metaphysical whodunnit" one does need some consistency to chart out the metaphysics...a few short stories would help standardize the canon in that regard...

Wilshire:
I think probably "portion of god" and/or Third Sight seems something closer to Intellect than Soul. Why else would Moenghus shine so brightly. Also, this explains why Skin Spies wouldn't necessarily jump out in the Third Sight.

The Cish don't see souls, but something else entirely.

sciborg2:

--- Quote from: Wilshire on May 17, 2021, 05:49:45 pm ---I think probably "portion of god" and/or Third Sight seems something closer to Intellect than Soul. Why else would Moenghus shine so brightly. Also, this explains why Skin Spies wouldn't necessarily jump out in the Third Sight.

The Cish don't see souls, but something else entirely.

--- End quote ---

I was thinking about this again, going back to Bakker's D&D campaign...perhaps what the Cish see is the relative portion of stats?

Souls "shine" in the sense that great souls have great intellect/charisma/wisdom...possibly even physical stats are the usual manifestation of a great soul. And since this has always worked out, as far as the Cish can explore metaphysics (they don't seem to have any facility with the Daimos) they just see the skin-spies perfect machinery as bright souls?

Wilshire:

--- Quote from: sciborg2 on June 30, 2021, 05:26:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wilshire on May 17, 2021, 05:49:45 pm ---I think probably "portion of god" and/or Third Sight seems something closer to Intellect than Soul. Why else would Moenghus shine so brightly. Also, this explains why Skin Spies wouldn't necessarily jump out in the Third Sight.

The Cish don't see souls, but something else entirely.

--- End quote ---

I was thinking about this again, going back to Bakker's D&D campaign...perhaps what the Cish see is the relative portion of stats?

Souls "shine" in the sense that great souls have great intellect/charisma/wisdom...possibly even physical stats are the usual manifestation of a great soul. And since this has always worked out, as far as the Cish can explore metaphysics (they don't seem to have any facility with the Daimos) they just see the skin-spies perfect machinery as bright souls?

--- End quote ---

Skin-spies, other than raw intellectual power, would probably be very similar to dunyain. They are calculating, can do complex impressions which implies a great deal of intellect and/or problem solving capability, and they are physically stronger and faster than the Dunyain. Kellhus wins his engagements with them through trickery and luck, plus the ever present Superior Intellectual Prowess.

Cynical Cat:
What passes for a soul for a Skin Spy (remembering that one of them, admittedly an outlier, could perform sorcery) may not be easy to distinguish from a weak souled human.  This could also be true only up to a point, allowing a Cishaurim to recognize Skin Spies by their souls once he knew what he was looking for.

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