World War IV

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Wilshire

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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 12:34:07 pm »
IMO, its what you get when you let emotion and religion rule the world.
Yes, it would be better if all of us were dûnyain.  ;)

I think so, yes. All religion is a cancer. Its used as a mechanism to control people, and keep the old guard in power, and as an excuse to commit evil. Nothing else.
As long as we allow it to control the minds and hearts of everyone, the world is doomed.
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Woden

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 12:42:18 pm »
I agree.

By the way I want to apologize for my multiple faults of expression - that probably originate some misunderstanding. English is obviously not my mother tongue, and I haven't studied it since I left high school 25 five years ago. I have read a lot in english since then but it is hard for me to express my thoughts in a elaborate form in english. I will try to do my best.
Thanks guys for being patient with me.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 12:46:28 pm »
Thanks for participating. And no, I apologize for only speaking one language - its actually pretty embarrassing lol.

Its also very easy for me to pretend to be level headed here, since I'm so far removed from the actual violence. This is the real world, and it can be dark and gritty. I'm sorry for elevating my tone in any way, so thank you for your patients with me :) .
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H

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2017, 12:55:40 pm »
IMO, its what you get when you let emotion and religion rule the world.
Yes, it would be better if all of us were dûnyain.  ;)

I think so, yes. All religion is a cancer. Its used as a mechanism to control people, and keep the old guard in power, and as an excuse to commit evil. Nothing else.
As long as we allow it to control the minds and hearts of everyone, the world is doomed.

I can't say I like that definition.  Religion isn't inherently good or evil.

The problem is people.  People are corrupt.  Every power structure avails itself to corruption.  In reality, religion should be the least susceptible, but unfortunately the least is still not very good.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 01:17:29 pm »
IMO, its what you get when you let emotion and religion rule the world.
Yes, it would be better if all of us were dûnyain.  ;)

I think so, yes. All religion is a cancer. Its used as a mechanism to control people, and keep the old guard in power, and as an excuse to commit evil. Nothing else.
As long as we allow it to control the minds and hearts of everyone, the world is doomed.

I can't say I like that definition.  Religion isn't inherently good or evil.

The problem is people.  People are corrupt.  Every power structure avails itself to corruption.  In reality, religion should be the least susceptible, but unfortunately the least is still not very good.

The problem with religion, for me, is it's unassailable and irrefutable claims. It makes it so easy to always be the good guy and other's to be the bad guy, without any chance of reconciliation.
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Woden

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2017, 01:26:16 pm »
And the religion ignores our human insignificance in a cosmic scale. If the God exists we are less than fleas in Its Eyes - lol, I love the dialog Kellhus-Proyas about the God.
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pail

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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 01:51:47 pm »
It's far more complicated than that. And most of it doesn't have much to do with the religion. While we are all calling ISIS extremists and all, 99.99999% of their actions are condemned already by Islam.

This isn't wrong, but it depends on how you define Islam. Islam as believed and practiced by the majority of Muslims around the world in 2017? Of course, most Muslims are much more moderate than ISIS, so their brand of Islam would condemn many of ISIS' actions. That's the most prevalent brand and we can't dismiss it because religions are like living things that evolve with time. On the other hand, if we define Islam as the set of beliefs and ideals and laws described by Islam's most important texts, the Quran and the hadith, I would argue that the most faithful and accurate practitioners of the religion in the world are ISIS.

Which leads us to the absence of education, education needs money.That's the heart of the problem.

This was my intuition as well: if we could just give everyone a good education and fulfill all their basic needs, terrorism would be solved. But it turns out that the data shows no negative correlation between being well-educated and becoming a terrorist, and, in some studies, even shows a positive correlation!

You can't fight an idea with a gun

Can't you though? Didn't guns and bombs defeat Nazism? Rather than looking at war as a totally different arena from a battle of ideas, I look at it as the last resort, or the escalation, of that same battle. We want to beat dangerous ideas with other ideas and rationality so that we don't have to beat them with guns. But history has shown, by my reading of it at least, that guns can in fact kill them when it comes to that.

Woden

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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2017, 01:58:24 pm »
"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

REH was right.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2017, 02:04:24 pm »
Can't you though? Didn't guns and bombs defeat Nazism? Rather than looking at war as a totally different arena from a battle of ideas, I look at it as the last resort, or the escalation, of that same battle. We want to beat dangerous ideas with other ideas and rationality so that we don't have to beat them with guns. But history has shown, by my reading of it at least, that guns can in fact kill them when it comes to that.

Well, most say WWI reparations led to WWII, right? And there are still natizis all around. In the united states even, we just had an attack in SC.

But arguable thats entirely different. The natzi's seized control of the country, and people were happy to drop it once 'it was over', yes?

Do you propose we kill every person that doesn't share your ideology? Because I agree that that would be an extremely effective answer. Round everyone up with violent ideologies, and burn them in big buildings. But its tough to sepparate wheat from chaff. So really, that solution is just killing everyone that believes in any ideology thats different than mine.

Oops, wait, what does that sound like?

Violence only ever begets violence.

---
Edit: Further, I'd argue WWII created Israel, wich lead to increased tensions in the middle east, which ultimately lead to IS. So that war didn't defeat anything, it kicked the can farther down the road. They know now that they can't seize power and fight a world war and win, so now, terrorisms forever.

So who really won?  IS is todays natzi's. Except we cant just invade the country because they dont have one. They exist nowhere except the hearts and minds of those who believe.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:11:19 pm by Wilshire »
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Woden

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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2017, 02:15:49 pm »
Yes, but to do nothing implies defeat in the end (and sranc violence).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:21:59 pm by Woden »
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2017, 02:17:56 pm »
The problem with religion, for me, is it's unassailable and irrefutable claims. It makes it so easy to always be the good guy and other's to be the bad guy, without any chance of reconciliation.

That kind of sounds like almost every other "-ism" I can think of though.

I just don't think labeling religion as evil is helpful, productive or particular apt.  Perhaps that's my bias.  It's people's misuse of it that it an issue.  Just like every other "-ism."

Do you propose we kill every person that doesn't share your ideology? Because I agree that that would be an extremely effective answer. Round everyone up with violent ideologies, and burn them in big buildings. But its tough to sepparate wheat from chaff. So really, that solution is just killing everyone that believes in any ideology thats different than mine.

Just don't forget to round yourself up in this example, because this is also a violent ideology.  So, once you have burned literally everyone, you will have solved the problem.  Remember, there are no crimes if no one is left alive.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Woden

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2017, 02:25:03 pm »
Yes, that sounds like Amalric's definitive solution: "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."
Kill them all. For the Lord knows those that are His own.
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2017, 02:34:13 pm »
Yes, but to do nothing implies defeat in the end (and sranc violence).

Doing nothing is obviously not an answer, but in 'fighting' Sranc, best to not become one yourself.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Woden

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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2017, 02:35:38 pm »
Yes, but to do nothing implies defeat in the end (and sranc violence).

Doing nothing is obviously not an answer, but in 'fighting' Sranc, best to not become one yourself.

Yes, we freshly know how the sranc meat corrupts.  ;)
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Redeagl

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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2017, 02:40:07 pm »
It's far more complicated than that. And most of it doesn't have much to do with the religion. While we are all calling ISIS extremists and all, 99.99999% of their actions are condemned already by Islam.

This isn't wrong, but it depends on how you define Islam. Islam as believed and practiced by the majority of Muslims around the world in 2017? Of course, most Muslims are much more moderate than ISIS, so their brand of Islam would condemn many of ISIS' actions. That's the most prevalent brand and we can't dismiss it because religions are like living things that evolve with time. On the other hand, if we define Islam as the set of beliefs and ideals and laws described by Islam's most important texts, the Quran and the hadith, I would argue that the most faithful and accurate practitioners of the religion in the world are ISIS.

Which leads us to the absence of education, education needs money.That's the heart of the problem.

This was my intuition as well: if we could just give everyone a good education and fulfill all their basic needs, terrorism would be solved. But it turns out that the data shows no negative correlation between being well-educated and becoming a terrorist, and, in some studies, even shows a positive correlation!

You can't fight an idea with a gun

Can't you though? Didn't guns and bombs defeat Nazism? Rather than looking at war as a totally different arena from a battle of ideas, I look at it as the last resort, or the escalation, of that same battle. We want to beat dangerous ideas with other ideas and rationality so that we don't have to beat them with guns. But history has shown, by my reading of it at least, that guns can in fact kill them when it comes to that.
But Nazism wasn't defeated. The German Nazi army was. Nazism is still here, just look at the US.

Pail, how much do you know about Islam?  I think you have got it a bit wrong.I have read the Quran ( IN ARABIC, that's very important to your understanding of it.Old Arabic poetry in general can't be translated. ) from cover to cover twice. I once saw on the internet a post like this " The Koran is a book of peace?!!  It's a book of war against anything alive!" and then the poster proceeded to parts that show how "evil" it is. They all looked really strange for me but this one takes the cake " The Jews and Christians are perverts and stupid. Kill them. " . Safe to say, the real book have no such thing :P   
The edition I read and the hadith I know says that ISIS are some of the most damned.

Edit: About moderate Muslims being peaceful: This isn't true. I had a friend who is anything but moderate. He lives in a mostly Christian area and didn't bomb or kill anybody.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:47:51 pm by Redeagl »
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers