The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Triskele on April 20, 2014, 12:00:19 am

Title: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on April 20, 2014, 12:00:19 am
Nonmen do not have hair.  Meppa does.

EDIT [Madness]: Changed thread title.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Aural on April 20, 2014, 12:32:53 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig  :P
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on April 20, 2014, 12:42:59 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig  :P

Touche, but Nonmen also do not have nut brown skin. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on April 20, 2014, 03:31:42 am
@ Curethan - Maybe a myth about Cujara coming back like King Arthur?

You know what's weird--just as there are no creation myths in Earwa, there are no apocalypse narratives aside from the Consult.  I don't know if it's normal, but I had assumed that cultures developed those kinds of things so that the nonmen and humans should have them before the Inchoroi arrive.  Something from the Tusk that will be revealed in TUC?

@ Triskele - Fine!  He is no nonman!  Hairy and nut brown skin and such a delicious mystery!!!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Madness on April 20, 2014, 02:31:36 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig  :P

Touche, but Nonmen also do not have nut brown skin. 

Lmao. All class around here :).

You know what's weird--just as there are no creation myths in Earwa, there are no apocalypse narratives aside from the Consult.

+1 - Must be a thing; even a simple Ex-Nihilo creation myth for the Inrithi or Fanim - though to be honest, I still think we're going to get a more depthful gauge of Fanim Culture pre/post-destruction by the Holy War and that that story might yet reveal a very complicated belief system.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on April 24, 2014, 06:50:42 pm
Perhaps Meppa is to the Cishaurim what Saccarees is to the Mandate?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 24, 2014, 07:32:20 pm
Perhaps Meppa is to the Cishaurim what Saccarees is to the Mandate?

Sooooo, a tool risen up by Kellhus to complete some obscure end?
I'd say that is a safe bet, but ti dones't really answer the question of who :P
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on April 24, 2014, 07:56:54 pm
Just got around to reading the thread on Kellhus' Limits and your theory about Meppa being a Kellhus plant:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1052.msg10581#msg10581

Wonderful!

I was thinking of Meppa as a something Moe left behind, if Moe is gone and now Meppa is a lose canon, like a Saccarees minus Kellhus.  I don't know, grabbing for straws or something.

EDIT: You've nearly won me over with the theory, Wilshire.  More plausible that Kellhus is controlling Fanayal than being unable to find and kill him.  :)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Somnambulist on April 25, 2014, 10:47:02 am
Not sure if I already said this, but this is a theory.  When Moe was sitting with Cnaiur after he'd been stabbed, his snakes were rubbing Cnaiur's head and Moe said something like 'I need your strength'.  I believe Moe intended to drain Cnaiur of his life force to enable him to translate his soul into another body.  When Cnaiur chorae'd him, the process was incomplete.  That other body was Meppa.   Moe's psyche (or whatever) partially imprinted on Meppa's causing him to not remember who he was.  Also, maybe it gave him his vast knowledge of the psukhe, allowing him to become the badass cishaurim we all know and love.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Madness on April 25, 2014, 01:29:56 pm
I like it. Partially Cnaiur/partially Moenghus the Elder :).
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on April 25, 2014, 01:38:31 pm
Not sure if I already said this, but this is a theory.  When Moe was sitting with Cnaiur after he'd been stabbed, his snakes were rubbing Cnaiur's head and Moe said something like 'I need your strength'.  I believe Moe intended to drain Cnaiur of his life force to enable him to translate his soul into another body.  When Cnaiur chorae'd him, the process was incomplete.  That other body was Meppa.   Moe's psyche (or whatever) partially imprinted on Meppa's causing him to not remember who he was.  Also, maybe it gave him his vast knowledge of the psukhe, allowing him to become the badass cishaurim we all know and love.

Well that's fucking awesome!  Meppa might be the perfect mix of intellect and passion!  The One!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 26, 2014, 12:09:24 am
I like it. Partially Cnaiur/partially Moenghus the Elder :).
100% Meta-Psukari death robot.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Garet Jax on July 26, 2014, 05:24:08 pm
Never got in on this thread before it was locked. :'(


Unless it has been disproven already, I am a believer in Titirga being Meppa.  Still has his eyes, amnesia from a mountain falling on his head, practiced the psukhe then and now, and the only living human that grasped the meta gnosis without Kellhus' tutelage.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Aural on July 27, 2014, 05:10:50 am
But how is he still alive?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Garet Jax on July 27, 2014, 05:12:57 am
It is fate.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 27, 2014, 06:20:24 am
Maybe the hole under Viri was bottemless and he spent a long time falling towards hell without dying.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 27, 2014, 11:27:00 pm
But how is he still alive?
Here's a version about accidental time-travel. :3

Titirga was one of the brightest gnostics in history and needed a quick solution to his lil problem (no earth's echo to cling to — no possibility to walk in the air and save himself from falling down). Where Kellhus took cants of chatting and remade them into a teleporter, there Titirga could try to rethink the very idea of walking in the air. As they say death's proximity creates wonders.

Why use an actual and perceptible echo like some petty anagogic schoolmen? In general it's too demanding & blunt, in particular it's certainly impossible. So like a true gnostic he applies a wide abstraction of such echo, which is pure and elegant enough for sorcery to make all the work and to round all the rough edges. Poof! His wish is granted. He safely walks over the same earth again but paying the price of the different time (as a resulf of massive generality of his abstraction).

Literally Titirga is so badass he pierced the time after he slipped.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Francis Buck on July 28, 2014, 02:24:18 am
I still think he's Moenghus, but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong.

I will say that if Meppa ISN'T Moe, then he won't be any other surprise character from the past. The amnesia and everything about Meppa seems RIPE for a Bakker-style red herring.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 28, 2014, 02:59:42 am
I'll finish compiling the list of guesses from the first thread sometime this week and edit it onto the first page here for reference.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2014, 01:05:21 pm
Never got in on this thread before it was locked. :'(

Lol, look for unlocked roman numerals, friend.

I'll finish compiling the list of guesses from the first thread sometime this week and edit it onto the first page here for reference.

Quote from: Madness
When I ever have some bulk free time, I'll get around to posting my Almanac - Ch. 12. Cnaiur tells Kellhus that Moenghus' eyes are almost pale enough to pass for Scylvendi? How does this relate to Ketyai?

So far we have Meppa is:

1. Xinemus
2. Inrau
3. Cnaiur
4. Moenghus the Elder
5. Meppa, Cishaurim, Second Son of Moenghus
6. One of the Three missing of the Nine Incandanti
7. One of Moenghus' Sect of the Cishaurim
8. Neuropunctured Metapsukhari
9. Titirga
10. Skin-Spy
11. Reincarnation of Fane

You had a couple more suggestions on page 10 (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=800.135), Curethan. I didn't really check to read after that.

Also, I was reading through the thread searching for that list and I had answered Trisk and suggested that we've never seen Meppa's empty sockets - which is untrue. In WLW, Meppa raises his headpiece when Fanayal introduces him to Malowebi.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Bolivar on July 28, 2014, 06:10:52 pm
Right now I'm leaning towards another son of Moenghus, since the fact that he had other (supposedly dead) children appears in the same book.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on July 29, 2014, 12:55:12 pm
Right now I'm leaning towards another son of Moenghus, since the fact that he had other (supposedly dead) children appears in the same book.
I  really want Moenghus to be dead but have agency in the world, like through unknown children.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on August 27, 2014, 11:39:03 am
It would be neat if the world was all connected underneath, so Titirga could spend eons wandering the depths before showing up in the south.  This would be a cool way for mansion to war against mansion back in yore.

However, I'm betting that Titirga was consumed in the blast from exploding diurnal.

The more I think about it, the more I think Meppa is Moe, especially since he turns up in the 3 seas just about the time Kellhus leaves.  He would need to be working from the shadows in the desert while Kellhus did his thing.

Perhaps Moenghus found the place where Fane had his revelations?  A mansion or topoi or something else awesome?  A topoi that looked out on heaven?

Perhaps Meppa is following the Erratics path?  He is cultivating love for Fanayal in order to murder him and remember?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2014, 04:05:59 pm
Thought we had physical description of Meppa that ruled out Moe?
Psuke glamor, no mark, perfect transformation. I hate the Psuke lol, it can be too much of a deus ex machina, which is why I avoid it in my crackpots and generally find it difficult to discuss anything involving it. Its why I don't subscribe to the meta-Moenghus theories/crackpots/nerdenals. I can accept it if its in the book, but until then i'll not be convinced otherwise.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Somnambulist on August 28, 2014, 04:29:33 pm
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him.  The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.'  Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion.  Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Garet Jax on August 28, 2014, 05:30:35 pm
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him.  The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.'  Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion.  Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.


I like that.  Moe could also have some passions that escaped him before.  Dying could have that impact on someone I suppose.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 29, 2014, 02:19:33 am
I had the same theory but with Cnaiur rather than the initiate.
Remember Moe says he needs Cnaiur's strength just before he gets choraed, and Moe's snakes are pressing hard against his temples...
Cnaiur's or Moe's arms would give either of them away because of the swazonds.

However, it is Meppa's skin tone that messes most theories up.
He's brown and the Kian and most surrounding peoples are pale (Ketyai and Scylvendi). As are Moe and Cnaiur.
Malowebi should surely have been surprised if he were Zeumi.

He could be from Nilnamesh, I guess - can't remember them being described as any particular tribe.

Another interesting thing, Fanayal is a direct descendent of Fane and the Cishaurim were synonymous with the Kianese tribe, the Indara-Kishauri (water-bearers) who saved Fane's life and attended his revelations.  So Meppa and Fanayal should be fairly closely related, at the least in a social setting. Meppa may not know who he is, but Fanayal should.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on August 29, 2014, 03:00:00 am
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that the Kianine are pale. 

I've always taken it as if our Nilnameshi are like our south Asians like Indians and Pakistanis and the Kianine are more like our Arabs or North Africans like Egypt through Saudi Arabia and Iraq. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 29, 2014, 03:27:32 am
Malowebi refers to the Kianene as pale near the start of Ch5 WLW.
Meppa is described as nut-brown shortly after, when Malowebi meets him.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Somnambulist on August 29, 2014, 04:01:28 am
I think pale is a relative term.  Malowebi is Satyothi, which is black-skinned.  Any non-Satyothi would be pale to him.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 29, 2014, 06:14:38 am
Most every definition of pale as an adjective is for whitish complexion or almost colourless grey or white.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on August 29, 2014, 04:58:21 pm
Most every definition of pale as an adjective is for whitish complexion or almost colourless grey or white.

I think pale is a relative term.  Malowebi is Satyothi, which is black-skinned.  Any non-Satyothi would be pale to him.

What Somna said. Your looking at an arab guy standing next to a african guy, the arab guy is pale, but if you put the arab fellow next to me, he's dark. Regardless of what "most" definitions are, the POV and surroundings are important. Everything is relative, especially when talking about skin tone. Native American to Brazillian, the NA is pale or whiteish, but compared to some Canadian guy, he's dark.

Some definitions of pale also include feeble and unimpressive.... Context...
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on August 29, 2014, 07:01:26 pm
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him.  The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.'  Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion.  Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.
Cishaurim snakes = sandworms = Leto ii

It is known.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on August 29, 2014, 09:41:52 pm
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him.  The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.'  Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion.  Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.

I LIKE THIS!

Let's step on the gas: MOENGHUS IS THE SNAKE

I think Moe would find a way to change his skin color if he wanted.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 29, 2014, 11:15:16 pm
What Somna said. Your looking at an arab guy standing next to a african guy, the arab guy is pale, but if you put the arab fellow next to me, he's dark. Regardless of what "most" definitions are, the POV and surroundings are important. Everything is relative, especially when talking about skin tone. Native American to Brazillian, the NA is pale or whiteish, but compared to some Canadian guy, he's dark.

Some definitions of pale also include feeble and unimpressive.... Context...

The reason some definitions include feeble and unimpressive is because becoming pale refers to capillary action associated with blood loss.  It's a term like blush - you don't often notice such differences with darker skin.
Also, Malowebi is talking about the Kian Grandees as a group, not comparatively.

You could be right.  I tend to go with what the word actually means and what the author wrote.

I believe Arabs in general are far more numerous and contain much more diversity amongst the tribes and ethnic mixture of the middle east the the Kian.  All of the other civilizations of the western side of the three seas are Ketyai (black hair, light skin).  The groups that are described with darker (middling) skin tones come from the east.

But just because Fanim culture seems analogous to medieval Muslims such as the Saracen - I don't really understand the reasoning behind extending that to skin-tone.
For example, Zeum itself seems a lot closer to imperial China in the cultural hints we have received so far as to it's cultural stucture and policy.

Beyond those generalizations, I guess that I will concede that perhaps Meppa's nut-brown skin might just be the darkest extreme of the Kianese skin rainbow.
I feel like the terms nut-brown and pale were perhaps deliberately used so close together to obfuscate Meppa's identity or thoughts that of who he might be.

@mg; that's already been guessed as well, man.  I will get that list of guessers & guesses compiled before TUC is released, in case Meppa's identity is revealed therein.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2014, 07:06:00 pm
locke mentioned in another post the Meppa is Moenghus' father / Kellhus' grandfather. Not sure if thats been stated in this topic yet, but it seemed novel to me.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Aural on September 02, 2014, 08:48:26 pm
locke mentioned in another post the Meppa is Moenghus' father / Kellhus' grandfather. Not sure if thats been stated in this topic yet, but it seemed novel to me.

Interesting, yes. But isn't Kellhus about 53 55 years old now? For Meppa to be his grandfather how old does he have to be?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on September 02, 2014, 09:56:57 pm
Anasurimbors live 150 years plus not 75 years plus

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 12:35:34 am
Do we really know that's standard and not just that one Anasurimbor?

Although even if it didn't used to be, I wonder if Dunyain bred for longevity in their offspring in addition to their other traits. If so, it's possible with the right genes (and a great dearth of oncogenes) that a human could live to be 120-130.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Aural on September 03, 2014, 08:31:11 am
One Anasurimbor that we know of lived to 150+ long ago because he was almost half Nonman. Now that the Nonman blood must have been diluted significantly it's hard to imagine that an Anasurimbor can live up to 150 years on average.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 08:46:15 am
Still, Kellhus seems to be in pretty good shape for a 55 year old.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on September 03, 2014, 03:59:59 pm
One Anasurimbor that we know of lived to 150+ long ago because he was almost half Nonman. Now that the Nonman blood must have been diluted significantly it's hard to imagine that an Anasurimbor can live up to 150 years on average.
Bakker and tolkien. Aragorn. Doesn't matter if it's diluted.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 04:08:22 pm
Bakker doesn't just ape Tolkien 1 for 1.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 05:35:50 pm
@ Curethan - :( the perennial problem of showing up late to the party!

When TUC finally comes out, all of you old timers are going to have fun linking to the all the things you predicted.  Probably need a whole thread for "Called It"
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 10, 2014, 01:56:33 am
Bakker doesn't just ape Tolkien 1 for 1.
Yeah the similarities are there but certainly not a replica.

Anyway, one bullet point does not make a trendline for thousands of years of history and bizarre breeding.
I will say though that Akka is even older than Kellhus, not to mention Iyokus. There are plenty of "elderly" in Earwa that are doing pretty damn well for their time.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on September 17, 2014, 04:22:52 am
Question:  do we see on screen that all of the Cishaurim assassins that attack the Scarlet Spires are eventually killed once the rest of the SS respond? 

thermerchant just through out an idea elsewhere or just the beginning of an idea about how Meppa might be able to reveal more about the attack on the SS if he starts to get his memories back.  I need to reread the scene to see if the text allows for any chance of a Cishaurim surviving even if incapacitated. 

What if one of the Cish was knocked out during the SS response but had lost his memory so they kept him around and experimented?  Could this explain how The Last Cishaurim is named Meppa when the only other mention of "Meppa" in the text is the "Meppa Cataract" which is a spell used by the Scarlet Spires?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 17, 2014, 05:17:30 am
lol, i was just reading themerchant proposing something similar about Meppa!  it never occured to me Triskele and its a cool idea!

I think the scene is recounted from Eleazarus POV.  He uses a dragonhead on them, so I don't know if they would be entirely incinerated or if they could use that as cover to appear incinerated. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on September 17, 2014, 05:26:34 pm
Yeah, I found it, and it seemed pretty clear that he killed all three with a single dragonhead and felt that their suffering had been too short.  Bummer for that theory unless there was another Cish who was "off screen" who helped with the infiltration.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on September 18, 2014, 10:32:33 am
Yeah i didn't have TDTCB handy to check. He might still be able to reveal a back story to it without having being there.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2014, 12:59:19 pm
Odd, though, that a single dragonhead from a young Eleazarus killed all 3 assassins. Shows that the ones they sent are low ranking and/or not particularly adept at wielding the Psuke. To think, the Grandmaster killed by mere field spies... :P
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 18, 2014, 04:03:13 pm
Odd, though, that a single dragonhead from a young Eleazarus killed all 3 assassins. Shows that the ones they sent are low ranking and/or not particularly adept at wielding the Psuke. To think, the Grandmaster killed by mere field spies... :P

Perhaps their mission was to kill and then be killed?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2014, 04:31:23 pm
Would take a powerful driver for that. The Cish are even fewer than the few, though I imagine religious fervor goes a long way.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 18, 2014, 07:36:11 pm
Would take a powerful driver for that. The Cish are even fewer than the few, though I imagine religious fervor goes a long way.

Like having three dudes travel to Zeum just to cut their own throats?  :P

I wonder about the number of Cishaurim.  Could be bigger than it seems.

ALL OF ISHUAL GOES CISHAURIM AFTER KELLHUS LEAVES
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 19, 2014, 01:33:53 pm
Like having three dudes travel to Zeum just to cut their own throats?  :P
ALL OF ISHUAL GOES CISHAURIM AFTER KELLHUS LEAVES
Exactly what I was suggesting. Like father like son.

I wonder about the number of Cishaurim.  Could be bigger than it seems.
I think the text suggests they don't have many members (whether or that is reliable is up to you I suppose).
I don't remember who said that or when though, so I may have made it up.

How many battles did the Cish actually fight in? I thought it was only like 2 or 3. The first was near the beginning, right after Kellhus' first prediction, and obviously Shimeh. Both cases we only saw a couple Cish.

At Shimeh there were, what, like 4 Primaries that Kel killed? One of those was also battle Elazarus. A couple that battled with one of the Ciphrang. And then there where several that hid within the walls with the army to burst out in surprise.
I just got the feeling that there weren't even that many at Shimeh, their holy city. Dunyain influence or not, I would think that they would throw all (maybe all -1) they had at the Holy War to defend their home and religious center.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 19, 2014, 01:58:28 pm
I'm suggesting that the Cishaurim have pulled off a long-term massive cover up of their numbers!  They let on that they have about as many as the Scarlet Spires and they sacrifice many on the way to and in Shimeh to make all the 3 seas and Kellhus and the Consult believe that they are extinguished.  Now they can work in the shadows like never before!

The Cishaurim seem plainly secretive + independent of the padirajah + have a dunyain ... could = many many more Cishaurim!  Sacrifice ~100 sorcerers to hide ~200 from all the world! 

Think of the concerts!  The Mangaecca send Aurang out in a measely man/crow body -- the Cishaurim warp Moenghus (and others) to Agongorea in goddamn warrior-tank-beasts!!!

Wouldn't someone find 200 cishaurim hanging out at a snakehead rec center?  With enough psukhe and meta-psukhe, the glamour would be so impenetrable and invisible it bring tears to the eyes of the guy who walled up the Ark. 

Fuck, maybe they would even be hid from the gods!  Maybe the reason Yatwer moves against Kellhus is because she finally *noticed* his extreme sorcery.  Maybe the psukhe hides a person from all????
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 19, 2014, 03:14:45 pm
This is precisely why I believe the Psuke has been extinguished, as I commented on the Cishaurim thread.

Any way, did they say somewhere that they had as many as SS? That is surprising to me, considering SS is by far the largest school, several times the size of the other schools (excluding the Cish of course).
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Triskele on September 19, 2014, 04:44:28 pm
We get a take on their numbers for the perspective of the SS.  Eli and Iyokus are talking about what their reports show from when the Shrial Knights charged and took out 12 Cishaurim on the Battleplain.

The narration says something like "it was believed that the Cishaurim could field at most 100 to 120" and that this is near to what the SS could field (but suggests that the SS has slightly more).  But it seems the SS misread other things about the Cishaurim, so who knows how reliable this is. 

It's funny.  The SS seems to think that the Psukhe is "sometimes unfathomably powerful" but of course somehow still inferior to the Anagogis. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 29, 2014, 12:13:35 am
We get a take on their numbers for the perspective of the SS.  Eli and Iyokus are talking about what their reports show from when the Shrial Knights charged and took out 12 Cishaurim on the Battleplain.

The narration says something like "it was believed that the Cishaurim could field at most 100 to 120" and that this is near to what the SS could field (but suggests that the SS has slightly more).  But it seems the SS misread other things about the Cishaurim, so who knows how reliable this is. 

It's funny.  The SS seems to think that the Psukhe is "sometimes unfathomably powerful" but of course somehow still inferior to the Anagogis. 

I agree, I think the SS's shortcomings make their conclusions doubtful.  I wonder if Bakker developed any numbers about Kellhus uniting and maximizing the schools over the 20 year interval.  Would be interesting.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 29, 2014, 07:35:15 pm
There is the potential there for an extreme increase in numbers for The Few. All of them, especially the mandate, where thrust into a position of high regard. They would have been recruiting heavily, openly, and with the full support of the people. I'm guessing most would be eager to join the ranks, and anyone from children to older men would have been given the chance. 20 years is a long time.

Kellhus might have even done experiments with breeding schoolmen, or at least encouraging schoolmen to have as many children as possible on the off chance that they are more likely to be of the Few. Anyone born in the first 5ish years of his reign would be capable of joining the Ordeal when it marched, and 15-20 years of rigorous training could make some pretty badass schoolmen.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 29, 2014, 09:11:55 pm
Too true--and if Kellhus is thinking past the end of Golgotterath, he may be maximizing the number of sorcerers for decades to come.  One of the new divine laws of Kellic scripture: all schoolman are commanded to breed as much as possible.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2014, 07:12:55 pm
"as much as possible" lol. That would be so many babies. Thats like impregnating a different woman per 1-3 days, per schoolman.

Maybe a mandate for Swayali to breed with the most intelligent schoolmen as much as possible would be more feasible. And then every woman with the ability to see the Onta required to join their ranks.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: berithoras on November 06, 2014, 03:57:04 am
I've always taken Fanayal's statement that "Meppa doesn't know who he is" as meaning that Meppa doesn't know what his role is in the greater picture, and not that he doesn't remember who he is.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on November 06, 2014, 11:45:06 am
I've always taken Fanayal's statement that "Meppa doesn't know who he is" as meaning that Meppa doesn't know what his role is in the greater picture, and not that he doesn't remember who he is.

Welcome berithoras!  i wonder, what does your name mean?

idiot that i am, i hadn't thought of this interpretation.  it would be a cool reveal if Meppa is waiting to discharge some last order from Moenghus or the Cishaurim chief, but he doesn't know how or why.  maybe he'll know when he reaches the Andiamine Heights?  maybe he'll know when he meets a battle-weary Kellhus warping back?  maybe Meppa will show us who the White Luck Warrior really is!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: dragharrow on November 07, 2014, 02:53:44 am
There is the potential there for an extreme increase in numbers for The Few. All of them, especially the mandate, where thrust into a position of high regard. They would have been recruiting heavily, openly, and with the full support of the people. I'm guessing most would be eager to join the ranks, and anyone from children to older men would have been given the chance. 20 years is a long time.
Probably not older men. Before you can even really begin to learn how to perform sorcery you need to master the school's language. Then you need to learn how apprehend the complicated semantic processes of the sorcery. And at that point you're still a complete beginner.

It's so much harder to teach adults a new language than children. If they have only spoken one language their whole lives they may never may be able to grasp another one at the level necessary to convey semantics. If they havn't received any formal mathematical training they may never be able to grasp the logical jumps.

I think that the barriers against turning older people into useful mages are probably too great to make it a worthwhile investment. The costs of providing teachers of sorcery for anyone but young candidates would be too expensive.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on November 07, 2014, 06:29:01 am
I think the hard to teach adults language thing is an old relic of a fallacy that is reinforced by an approach to new languages that is functionally terrible and wouldn't work at all without a captive audience under threat of punishment with bad grades.  Voluntary new language acquisition is just work plain and simple, like learning to use a computer is work, or learning a new job is work. It requires mental effort, patience and time, most adults will happily use the excuse the fallacy conveniently supplies to avoid the work or to avoid feeling bad about themselves for giving up.

It's not ME to blame it's science, nope not possible despite billions of examples of it occurring throughout history clearly it's impossible I am definitely not to blame and have no part in my own failure.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on November 07, 2014, 11:06:00 am
the thing about adults having such a hard time with language strikes me as one of those lies that the audience is likely to believe, so it might work against the author to try to explain the opposite

in one of my classes, we just watched Escape Plan starring Stallone.  part of the movie has a character asserting that water swirls down a toilet differently in the southern hemisphere, vs the north.  that's the kind of thing that just so many people believe, that the audience would be disappointed if the heroes didn't employ it!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: dragharrow on November 10, 2014, 11:49:42 am
Akka does say that that is the reason that schools do not take on adult students. He could be wrong of course but Akka believes it to be true and so do the schools.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on November 10, 2014, 05:23:30 pm
While I agree with locke, as it applies IRL,

Akka does say that that is the reason that schools do not take on adult students. He could be wrong of course but Akka believes it to be true and so do the schools.

I think the Earwa belief would be equally prevalent and hold true. Whether it is actually true is irrelevant to them.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Seökti on February 01, 2015, 11:08:26 pm
I do believe that adults have a harder time grasping new languages.  Their minds are cluttered with much more, and their brains are less plastic.  Evolutionarily speaking it makes a lot of sense for children to be better at learning in general, as they have everything to learn.

I'm not certain Meppa is someone from the past that we knew, or maybe a lesser figure that only now plays prominent.  His assumed amnesia certainly suggests he is a familiar, but who?  My first guesses are almost certainly wrong - Moenghus, Cnaiur, Xinemus - all dead with little ambiguity, except for Cnaiur who was decked out in scars.

My money is on Meppa being either new or an old lesser character.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 06:30:20 am
Kellhus also believes adults are less capable of learning sorcery than children, apparently. It's mentioned that nearly every member of the Swayal Compact is young. That implies they weren't taking older women, whether they were among the Few or not.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Alia on February 03, 2015, 08:13:10 pm
Don't forget that Swayal would not take Mimara, because they claimed she was too old for it.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on February 04, 2015, 02:25:05 am
I think that's what Esmenet told Mimara to discourage her, but I don't think Mimara ever actually submitted herself to the Swayali  so an official decision from them was probably never made.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Alia on February 04, 2015, 05:56:02 am
So, here is a quote from TJE, chapter III
Quote
Even the Schoolmen Esmenet consulted had told her that Mimara was too old to master the painstaking meanings sorcery required.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on February 04, 2015, 05:58:31 am
Ah, then it is unlikely they'd be eager for her then. Though I suppose it's well within Esmenet's power to insist that they do, if she wanted to. And Mimara would hold her unwillingness to do that against her.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2015, 04:30:56 pm
reading back through this thread, i realize that we almost nothing of the purported conflict between the Cishaurim and SS.  surely they would have had a battle here and there over the years--it would make a good Atrocity Tale

i can't remember just now--does Meppa himself claim to have memory loss?  i'm wondering if he's just pretending memory loss to Fanayal and co

i wonder if there's any possibility the Cishaurim weren't responsible for the attack on the SS.  i could see another individual stumbling upon the same mechanism of sorcery that Fane utilized, but not embracing Fane's religion (if they are separable).  Dunyain or perhaps a renegade faction in the Cishaurim?

like maybe Moenghus lied that the Cishaurim blamed the SS for skin spies.  maybe Moenghus just had some of his sect attack the SS and then when the SS responded, all of the Cishaurim became united in opposition

maybe the Cishaurim attackers warped out too and just threw some bones on the ground as they left to make it look like they died

maybe they utilized a long range magic cannon and only cast a glamor to make it look like anyone showed up at all, lol
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 07:32:43 pm
Meppa is X?

Maybe you're looking for "Who attacked the scarlet spires and why"
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on February 26, 2015, 03:38:52 am
Meppa is X?

Maybe you're looking for "Who attacked the scarlet spires and why"

Meppa is Wilshire
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on February 26, 2015, 04:20:10 am
I am Meppa, and so is my wife.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on February 26, 2015, 06:20:05 am
Well, if you think about it.  Aren't we all Meppa?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on March 04, 2015, 07:14:31 pm
Well, if you think about it.  Aren't we all Meppa?

what if Meppa was one of us?  just a stranger on the bus, trying to get a good deal on bulk snake orders
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on March 10, 2015, 05:09:48 am
Meppa is saul.  Start of chapter 5, ttt.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on March 16, 2015, 12:12:49 am
Meppa is saul.  Start of chapter 5, ttt.



like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Apostle?  too cool.  Meppa--> Cishaurim --> blind : Saul --> sees God --> scales fall from his eyes --> becomes Paul
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on March 17, 2015, 12:57:51 am
Meppa is saul.  Start of chapter 5, ttt.



like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Apostle?  too cool.  Meppa--> Cishaurim --> blind : Saul --> sees God --> scales fall from his eyes --> becomes Paul
Nailed it
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on March 17, 2015, 01:37:04 am
Meppa is saul.  Start of chapter 5, ttt.



like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Apostle?  too cool.  Meppa--> Cishaurim --> blind : Saul --> sees God --> scales fall from his eyes --> becomes Paul
Nailed it

that's what Pontius Pilate said!  woops!  ... sorry, i'll see myself out
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Darzin on March 26, 2015, 05:45:44 am
I'm not understanding your reference to chapter 5, are you saying Meppa is Conphas?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on March 26, 2015, 06:01:03 am
I might have meant chapter four or six, I was listening to the audio book.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on March 26, 2015, 12:29:35 pm
I'm not understanding your reference to chapter 5, are you saying Meppa is Conphas?
Welcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Darzin on March 27, 2015, 02:19:59 am
Quote
Welcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).

Thanks.

Quote
I might have meant chapter four or six, I was listening to the audio book.

I might be an idiot but I still can't find it, what was it that sparked the idea if you just remember some words I can search the E-book. I really like the idea of Meppa as a Saul/Paul type figure so I'd like to see what gave you that idea.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: The Sharmat on May 20, 2015, 02:30:10 am
I insist Darzin be kicked out of the forum because we already have someone with a Dagoth Ur avatar.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on May 20, 2015, 01:03:02 pm
I insist Darzin be kicked out of the forum because we already have someone with a Dagoth Ur avatar.
Thought you changed your name for a minute :P
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 05:17:30 pm
Quote
Welcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).

Thanks.

Quote
I might have meant chapter four or six, I was listening to the audio book.

I might be an idiot but I still can't find it, what was it that sparked the idea if you just remember some words I can search the E-book. I really like the idea of Meppa as a Saul/Paul type figure so I'd like to see what gave you that idea.

hi Darzin!  what does your name mean?

if Meppa is Paul, maybe we can expect some epistles from him?

if Meppa knows what's really going on, then is the whole Great Ordeal just a monstrous distraction?  to distract the gods?  then Meppa will ascend and murder the heavens while Yatwer and co are staring down at the fight on Gongorea?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 01:11:03 pm
if Meppa knows what's really going on, then is the whole Great Ordeal just a monstrous distraction?  to distract the gods?  then Meppa will ascend and murder the heavens while Yatwer and co are staring down at the fight on Gongorea?
And thus one of the Moenghus' sons controls the Outside, one the inside, and one the religious center.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on July 27, 2015, 08:16:12 pm
Meppa, the man that is always on my mind. You know, I'd love Cnaüir to still have a part in this. My money is that Meppa=Moe(intellect)+Cnaüir (passion). But, the more I think about the scene where this supposedly happens, one thing strikes me. When Cnaüir is putting the chorae to Moe's cheek, he says that the God stares back at him or something along those lines. I'm not good on the meta parts of this series, but it seems, to me, to show that they are joining the god. Like, this is why Meppa's Water is so strong. Its like the God had a hand in this thing. Almost, like how Yatwer is intervening, the God is using Meppa as his tool. I have a rough time explaining what I'm meaning here, but that's the gist of it. It would definitely align Meppa against the Consult if that's the case. The God don't wanna be wiped out.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 27, 2015, 11:54:40 pm
Meppa, the man that is always on my mind. You know, I'd love Cnaüir to still have a part in this. My money is that Meppa=Moe(intellect)+Cnaüir (passion). But, the more I think about the scene where this supposedly happens, one thing strikes me. When Cnaüir is putting the chorae to Moe's cheek, he says that the God stares back at him or something along those lines. I'm not good on the meta parts of this series, but it seems, to me, to show that they are joining the god. Like, this is why Meppa's Water is so strong. Its like the God had a hand in this thing. Almost, like how Yatwer is intervening, the God is using Meppa as his tool. I have a rough time explaining what I'm meaning here, but that's the gist of it. It would definitely align Meppa against the Consult if that's the case. The God don't wanna be wiped out.

awesome!  Moe infiltrates God then controls the Deity manipulating Meppa/WLW/everything else from Heaven!

when the Consult manage to capture God in the Carapace, little do they know that it will be a dunyain and he was planning on being there all along!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on October 12, 2015, 01:45:32 pm
Other than a bothersome interview with Bakker indicating otherwise, I would also think it was plausible that meppa was Cnaiur. It's a shame he's gone.

Recall that turning someone into a salt statue is a fairly well known biblical allusion. "Seeing god" in that situations seems like a reasonable metaphor, not necessarily literal, but there in lies the mystery.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on October 12, 2015, 05:42:19 pm
Other than a bothersome interview with Bakker indicating otherwise, I would also think it was plausible that meppa was Cnaiur. It's a shame he's gone.

Recall that turning someone into a salt statue is a fairly well known biblical allusion. "Seeing god" in that situations seems like a reasonable metaphor, not necessarily literal, but there in lies the mystery.

ah!  but Lott's wife turned to salt for looking back at the City of Sin!  but you are right, she was looking at where God's wrath was happening.  was she turned to salt because she refused to follow the instructions blindly or because she saw God?  idk.  maybe the avenging angels just needed a lot of salt for eating all the cooked corpses in Sodom

so Moe was totally wearing some other Cishaurim's skin.  so when the salting happened, the real Moe just crawled out of the husk a few minutes later.  that's why Kellhus' knife strike drew blood, but didn't kill Moe
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on October 27, 2015, 05:37:00 pm
There is a lovely animated bit about Sodom and gamora. I'll have to post it here if I find it.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: geoffrobro on October 27, 2015, 08:50:02 pm
This one? http://youtu.be/bar3GOzDNzg

"De-sexing stick"
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2015, 04:53:51 pm
I love this thread. I think Som put forth that Meppa is Cnaüir/Moe, Only the chorae stopped the transfer. I disagree, I believe the chorae finished the transfer. Meppa is so powerful because he has the well of passion that is Cnaüir. As for the amnesia, well he is still Dunyain, and it doesn't seem far-fetched to me that Moe could pull off that lie. I also like the idea that whatever want down in Kyudea, was transfered to a completely other person. That would then account for the nut brown skin. I don't really think that has to be the case though, since Cnaüir has spent the last couple of years in the deserts of Kian. The Swazond? No longer there, they are what healed them and was part of the transfer, imo. Just everything previous to Moe and Cnaüir in that cavern, imho, points to Moe having already thought this through and being yet again, a step ahead of Kellhus.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on December 21, 2015, 07:22:38 pm
Do we actually see Meppa's arms to know whether they are scarred or not?

There is of course the possibility that Moe didn't transfer into Cnaüir's body, but rather, somehow used him to transfer to another person.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2015, 07:58:57 pm
Do we actually see Meppa's arms to know whether they are scarred or not?

There is of course the possibility that Moe didn't transfer into Cnaüir's body, but rather, somehow used him to transfer to another person.

AFAIK, there is never anything said about Meppa's arms. I like the idea of it transferring to another body also.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2016, 07:22:48 pm
There is a lovely animated bit about Sodom and gamora. I'll have to post it here if I find it.
This one? http://youtu.be/bar3GOzDNzg

"De-sexing stick"
lol yes. Love this clip.
"snuts"
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on March 01, 2016, 11:04:42 pm
Do we actually see Meppa's arms to know whether they are scarred or not?

There is of course the possibility that Moe didn't transfer into Cnaüir's body, but rather, somehow used him to transfer to another person.

AFAIK, there is never anything said about Meppa's arms. I like the idea of it transferring to another body also.

Right, but if Meppa had arms cover in swazond it would be pointed out. Likewise, if he were 60 or 70 years old (which Cnaiur and Moe are) it would describe him as being old. I get the feeling he is probably 40. An unremarkable age. Does anyone know if there's a description of his age?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on March 02, 2016, 04:30:52 pm
Physical appearance but nothing about age. No one really knows anything about him, so it'd be tough for them to have an accurate age I think.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on March 02, 2016, 04:37:08 pm
I've never been particularly fond of the Meppa=Cnaüir connection, yet I'm not a fan of Moe just totally messed up and got killed either.

Meppa was certainly "made" by the events that ended the Cishaurim.  It could be that Meppa was a Primary that was held back (for some reason, maybe by Moe) and perhaps underwent a "soul-transfer" of sorts.  Maybe from Moe, maybe from some other Primary.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on March 02, 2016, 05:21:11 pm
I've never been particularly fond of the Meppa=Cnaüir connection, yet I'm not a fan of Moe just totally messed up and got killed either.

Meppa was certainly "made" by the events that ended the Cishaurim.  It could be that Meppa was a Primary that was held back (for some reason, maybe by Moe) and perhaps underwent a "soul-transfer" of sorts.  Maybe from Moe, maybe from some other Primary.

Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on March 02, 2016, 05:28:26 pm
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? :P. Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual. ;)


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on March 02, 2016, 05:53:19 pm
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? :P. Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual. ;)


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.

I'd like to consider myself a Moderate Moënghus theorist.  I don't think he was somehow all-powerful, yet not considering that Kellhus might actually kill him seems positively boned-headed.  Not the kind of thing we would expect from a Dûnyain who spent 30 years honing TTT to get to that moment.

Meppa lacking earlier memories seems to hint at a Dûnyain-like plant, since nothing coming before means he is almost something of a self-moving soul, but that could easily be red-herring.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on March 02, 2016, 07:10:31 pm
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? :P. Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual. ;)


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.

Ha ha ha. No, I did not realize that was a thing. Good to know. I'm willing to speculate, but I consider myself a nonbeliever in Moenghus Primacy.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on March 03, 2016, 03:49:06 pm
We've seen numerous soul transfers in the book it's not out of nowhere. Even a skinspy got a soul. Though i suspect that SkinSpy has been reprogrammed by Moe and sent to the Mandate to be revealed by Maitha to bring the Mandate onside.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on March 03, 2016, 04:15:46 pm
It's not out of nowhere @themerchant. I agree with you, there is plenty of textual evidence on the matter of soul transferring. I'm just up in the air on exactly what Moe wanted to accomplish in Kyudea. But, to say he didn't plan something is foolish.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 01:35:22 am
It might be possible that Moe simply found a way to circumnavigate or cancel a chorae's power.  Cnaiur touches him with the chorae and Moe does Psukhe to make it appear that he's been salted.

I know the chorae has been presented as an absolute so far, but that could just be another expectation Bakker will overcome.  If he's following Herbert at all, then absolutes are the very thing that characters figure out how to overcome.

I really don't think that Meppa's appearance means much.  If you have the psukhe, you could probably make yourself look like whatever you want. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 01:47:54 am
It might be possible that Moe simply found a way to circumnavigate or cancel a chorae's power.

Or, figured out a way to use a chorae to transfer his and Cnaüir's soul to another human. Sorta like some think he did with the Mandate skin-spy (Simas?).
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 02:47:35 pm
It's not out of nowhere @themerchant. I agree with you, there is plenty of textual evidence on the matter of soul transferring. I'm just up in the air on exactly what Moe wanted to accomplish in Kyudea. But, to say he didn't plan something is foolish.
I can't think of any instance where a soul is transferred to anything but an inanimate object. It's an assumption that a soul was transferred to a skin spy vs it being created with a soul or just being an anomaly the Consult cannot duplicate. If they had the ability to transfer souls at will into a skin spy I think they would build a bunch of them capable of using magic.

I just don't think Moe has it in him to overcome the absolute of salting by Chorae ;)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 01, 2016, 02:53:54 pm
I don't recall if it was in an interview or what, but there was mention of animals sometimes acquiring souls as well.

I still think something odd was up with how the Simas agent got a soul, but it's something we just might never learn of...
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 03:57:48 pm
@Blackstone, there is precedence for it. We see how Shae has lived through is soul trapping whatever you want to call it. Seswatha's heart. Yea, the skin-spy is just a guess at this point, but how would Maithenet know about Simas? Well, like everything else, Moe. The Waithii Doll, though inanimate it would seem to be a clue that it is possible. I think there is enough textual evidence for it to be a possibility.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 04:44:15 pm
@Blackstone, there is precedence for it. We see how Shae has lived through is soul trapping whatever you want to call it. Seswatha's heart. Yea, the skin-spy is just a guess at this point, but how would Maithenet know about Simas? Well, like everything else, Moe. The Waithii Doll, though inanimate it would seem to be a clue that it is possible. I think there is enough textual evidence for it to be a possibility.

Well, Seswatha's heart trapping his own soul is not the same as transferring person A's soul into person B's body. I think we don't know enough about Shae to say for sure what is going on there. It's just a bit from a teaser chapter (unless I am missing something).

As far as Maithanet knowing about Simas: this is a conundrum. Is it possible that Moe transferred a soul into a skin spy's body and then sent it to infiltrate the Mandate? Yes. But, I don't think there's any actual evidence in the books that Simas uses sorcery. So maybe the comment about Simas having a soul was Maithanet's Dunyain manipulation. So it's actually more *probable* that Maithanet showed up to Atyersus to ally with the Mandate and thought, "Oh shit, a skin spy."

But in short, I think it's possible, but not probable that Moe Quantum Leaped out of his body right before he got choraed by Cnauir.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 05:12:13 pm
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 05:44:59 pm
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 06:57:00 pm
As for soul transfer, there is plenty of it going around.
Souls into objects: Skin-spy (functionally a bio machine), locks at the library (souls embedded into the mechanism), Wathi Doll

So, putting a soul into an empty vessel, that's a thing.
Putting a soul into an occupied body? ie something that already has a soul? I don't think there's precedence for that.

Soul transfer into another body is a curious thought. If you look at shae, IMO its likely each single body is more/less dead and soulless, making it open to transfer. This might explain why they are all amputed - a dead body that is only sustained part of the time would lose blood flow in its peripheries maybe...

If moe had a dead guy on standby to transfer to, and if in fact a single person could achieve such a transference, then maybe its possible.

I still think he's dead though. I can't think of, and haven't hear of, a situation that didn ruin the story for me if Moe lived, corporeally, through that encounter. If its explained later, then I'm sure it'll be fine, but I wouldn't count on it. There have been few, if any, answers or bits of information given to us in TAE that have explained things from PoN.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 08:33:43 pm
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies.  What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.

Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.

And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.

Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 09:25:40 pm
Quote
So, putting a soul into an empty vessel, that's a thing.
Putting a soul into an occupied body? ie something that already has a soul? I don't think there's precedence for that.

Well we have Aurang taki g over Esme. And she continues to dream of his life later on. A part of Aurangs soul was left in her. There are little clues everywhere that this is possible.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 10:03:51 pm
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 02, 2016, 03:02:33 am
I agree that it is the cant of compulsion vs Aurang's soul taking over her body.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies.  What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.

Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.

And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.

Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.

But it seems just as likely that Moe would tell Maithanet how to extract information from a skin spy (I'm not disputing the two are linked). It says very clearly in TJE that Kellhus can get information from them.

I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me :D
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2016, 06:36:38 am
Quote
I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.

Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And,  I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 02, 2016, 01:01:38 pm
Yeah the whole of the first series was basically the execution of the Moe's TTT. Now it's a case of, did Kellhus take over it as he thinks, or is Moe still the conductor.

Best way to keep a secret is to tell no one even yourself, Meppa is a huge secret from everybody. Considering the amount of conditioning going on in these parts due to Dunyain exposure, I doubt he is random. We've already had scenes where Dunyain remove memories (Serwe in TWP). Probably a son of Moe's I reckon.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2016, 11:46:03 pm
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.

Yea,  I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But,  doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).

As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why?  No. But,  man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul,  and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.

As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 02:38:23 pm
Quote
I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.

Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And,  I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
Oh yeah, I definitely not trying to dispute that Moe orchestrated the first holy war (Scarlet Spires assassination, planting Maithanet as Shriah, etc), I'm just saying I think it would be disappointing for me as a reader if a) his conditioning was now driving the GO, or b) he is somehow still alive and still pulling the strings.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 02:45:35 pm
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.

Yea,  I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But,  doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).

As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why?  No. But,  man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul,  and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.

As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.

I reread that bit about Moe and Cnauir at the end of TTT the other day and that stuck out to me too. I think this is the only time we have read a description of someone choraed up close, and I assume that this is just a description of the process as seen from a foot away. I think the bit about a "god" is just how Cnauir, who is completely obsessed with Moe (and I daresay worships him in some way) would think about it. I think it was poetic license on Bakker's part and not meant as some sort of clue.

As for Kellhus interrogating skin spies, MSJ was right and I was wrong in our earlier posts. I found a part in TJE where they have captured the black-skinned skin spy, and it is mentioned that without Kellhus there, they wouldn't be able to get anything useful out of it. Since Maithanet is standing right beside Esmi when she thinks this, then the implication is that Kellhus CAN get information from them and Maithanet cannot. Therefore, it seems unlikely that Maithanet was able to find out on his own that Simas was a skin spy at the end of TTT. However, there is always the possibility that this was a mistake by Bakker.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Bolivar on April 04, 2016, 03:16:08 pm
It would be really Frank Herbert-esque if Meppa was Kellhus and a Ciphrang substitution from the Outside really is leading The Great Ordeal.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 03:52:54 pm
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.

Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 04:09:53 pm
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.

Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.

I'm not sure what you mean about "saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha." Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 05:46:52 pm

[/quote]
I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.

I'm not sure what you mean about "saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha." Can you elaborate?
[/quote]

I meant to write Akka. Kellhus name and revelations of Dreams over turn any previous objections Akka had when they first meet.

Science is about replication, the Inchies use the Old Science. They were able to replicate every graft we know of, even the sorcery graft even though it filled the pit of abortions. They suddenly encountered an unrepeatable experiment. Giving the ability to work sorcery to a skin spy.

It means that skin spies cannot be conditioned only read for info. I'm still leaning towards (as much as i can with weak evidence) Moe being the creator. As he needed something revealing to bring the Mandate immediately onside. Although the Skin Spy could just be a fortuitous correspondence of cause. As revealing a consult agent in the Quorum is just the ticket.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 04, 2016, 05:57:19 pm
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 06:07:13 pm
30 years my friends, 30 years......
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 04, 2016, 06:12:47 pm
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
The Inchoroi/Consult are inept at their own craft, them making a mistake they can't repeat - like some random sranc spilling some beaker of melted human toenails into the skin-spy vat thus making a soul - seems within reason.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 06:14:24 pm
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
The Inchoroi/Consult are inept at their own craft, them making a mistake they can't repeat - like some random sranc spilling some beaker of melted human toenails into the skin-spy vat thus making a soul - seems within reason.

Thats great Wilshire, what a imagination.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 06:23:52 pm
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 04, 2016, 06:41:15 pm
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.

Revealing Simas was just to ease that transition, but not all all necessary for his plans, regardless of the outcome. Why not teach the skin-spy sorcery himself and make it into some ultra-uber-meta-psukhe-gnositic-diamos wizard that he could wield to destroy the world, rather than sending it off to some dusty library to rot and then out it himself?

A tool of such fast importance and power would not be so easily disposed for no perceptible gain.

And, by the same arguments those of you posted above, if he did it once, why not do it a million times? Make a whole army, hell a whole nation, THE WORLD EVEN, of skin-spy Psukhari absolutely dominated by him and preciously attuned to his will?  They would be unconquerable, and he wouldn't need to send for his son off in Ishual to muck up his plans, or waste his time with silly Maithanet and his tenuous grasp on the Thousand Temples.

This is why the Meta-Moenghus argument is ridiculous. The Psukhe ruins the plot of the books if its allowed to continue. Having Moe be a master of the psukhe AND the tekne... C'mon. He only had 30 years wallowing in the basement of some old mansion with bad plumbing.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 07:10:58 pm
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:11:44 pm
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.



Can you give me some real life examples.

the Skin Spies are said to be new and they managed to reproduce them.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 04, 2016, 07:16:44 pm
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.

Well, from what we understand (very little) of Grafting the Onta though is rather different the "en-souling" something.  Inchoroi already have souls, the problem is that they didn't naturally see the Onta (i.e. are of the Few).  What the graft saught to do is add that perception.  Considering the results though, they seemed to have failed spectacularly at getting more than the "normal" reproductive rate for the Few.  This would probably mean that there is more to being one of the Few than just some "perceptual" mutation.  But I am getting away from the point here.

The fact is, Scott told us that sometimes, through forces unknown, even animals are known to have acquired souls.  I find the chances that the Consult just oops, made a skin-spy with a soul quite low.  In fact, there is a plausible reason to think that they might not even be able to make skin-spies at the moment (but I admit, this is unlikely).  Even besides this, what that would point to me is that the skin-spy acquired a soul, not made with one.  It isn't outside the realm of possibility that through Moe interrogating one, it somehow stumbled on a paradox which it apprehended, or that Moe inadvertently "enlightened" it though questioning.

I find the theory plausible.  More plausible to me than Moe somehow learning about a sleeper cell from another sleeper cell.  Why would anyskin-spy know where the other was?  That just seems like a bad idea, even if it is plausible, but Aurang seems to be quite unhappy when he learns that one skin-spy met with another:

Quote
“After delivering the Shriah’s message to Gotian, I met with Gaörtha—”
The small face grimaced. “You met with him? Did I sanction this?”
“N-no. But the whore asked me to find Achamian for her, and I knew Gaörtha had been assigned to watch him.”

So, I guess each is plausible in it's own way.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:32:03 pm
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

 We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

 

the only evidence we have is what Maithanet said. Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Well he can let a soul talk through him with respect to Skaurus and his message to the Emperor using his Magic. We've seen a demon yank out a Cish soul by grabbing their sorcery and pulling. We've seen souls placed in "inanimate" objects. They exist as parts of the locks of the Coffers, in a doll. Mek on the walls of Dagliash threaten to remove Seswatha soul or separate it so he is just an animal.

Ofc it could all be playing out as stated and this is just an over active imagination. Least we might find out soon!!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 04, 2016, 07:38:14 pm
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Eh, just to nitpick this again (I already did above), but the Graft to see the Onta and adding a soul are probably unrelated.  Inchoroi all have souls, they just weren't of the Few so they couldn't see the Onta and work sorcery.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:39:47 pm
Just to state i'm not sure about either theory. However by taking one side and letting others counter it, i get a much better idea than if i just sat and thought about it myself :)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 07:40:28 pm
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 07:41:44 pm
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:41:53 pm
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Eh, just to nitpick this again (I already did above), but the Graft to see the Onta and adding a soul are probably unrelated.  Inchoroi all have souls, they just weren't of the Few so they couldn't see the Onta and work sorcery.

I was replying to this "We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery)"

when i said grafted multiple times (6) I wasn't talking about putting a soul in, although it of course is an important distinction. Which i hadn't noted.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:43:39 pm
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Yeah this is the PROBLEM with the theory. who taught the skinspy sorcery. Specifically the Gnosis, only the Mandate and the Consult have Gnostic schools at the time. Various workarounds are using a soul that already knows it.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 07:44:11 pm
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)

Ha, Ever are Men Deceived! I am resolute in my crackpottery!
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 04, 2016, 08:01:53 pm
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 08:23:53 pm
A point i made last year in the other thread (that i forgot i made) was the Mandate all get a soul transfer when they grasp the heart.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 08:24:07 pm
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 08:52:52 pm
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

Having grasped his heart makes the Persemiota (the meaning fixing meditative techniques which  thanks to Seswatha Humocolous within them, the Mandate largely ignore) easier but not impossible if you have not grasped it. It's in TTT ,I think when Kellhus and Akka talk magic.

Some of the spelling might be a bit off, i'm terrible.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 09:41:42 pm
Yes you do. Thats why the Mandate have held onto the Gnosis for so long. Why the other schools envy them so. Its why Kellhus had to speak to Seswatha or whatever he did that allowed Akka to teach him the Gnosis.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 10:04:02 pm
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?


You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.

I do believe the Consult could have taught Simas the gnosis. The question is whether the Mangaecca style of the gnosis is different than the Sohonc's (Mandate's) style. If so, anyone who witnessed Simas using the "weird" gnosis would know something was up.

The more I think of it, the more I am of the opinion that the Consult would have had to plant a "child" skin spy with the Mandate. Just teaching an adult skin spy the gnosis (which from what we know should be impossible anyway) would not leave it marked enough to pass as someone using powerful sorcery for his entire life.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on April 04, 2016, 10:39:24 pm
Atrocity tale: childhood as an ensouled skin spy. Bonus points for tons of Orson Scott card references.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 11:51:58 pm
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?


You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.


Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 05, 2016, 12:51:40 am
Blackstone, the same thing crossed my mind about a child sorceror. Simas is indeed a enigma.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 05, 2016, 01:01:11 pm
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?


You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.


Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.

The way the glossary explains it, Mandate Gnosis is somehow seemingly different (somehow) from Sohonc, but no doubt probably based off the same principles.  The Mangaecca was allegedly one of the other 4 "Original Schools" with the Sohonc, but we don't know what the other two would be.  Then, in a different entry we are told that "some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence" at the dawn of the Apocalypse.  Apparently there are a ton of Gnostic "flavors" it's just that we only know of three, right now: what the Quya use, what the Mandate use, and what the Mangaecca use.  Aurang and/or Shae may well know others though, they've had plenty of time to think about it...

The more I think about it though, the less the Simas-agent seems like an "accident" and yet, I have said before, that I feel the agent must have been in place for years and years, meaning Moe's involvement seems very unlikely.  I think there is a greater mystery afoot...
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 05, 2016, 02:27:36 pm
...and back to Meppa.

There is an assumption by a lot of people that Moe is some sort of super user whose influence is still driving events in Earwa. I think this is unlikely.

Moe's actual power: We have two perspectives on Moe's power. 1) He is weak as a Chisaurim (from Kellhus). 2) He is the ultimate Chisaurim (From Xerius's meeting with Mallahet and this is assuming Moe=Mallahet, which seems most probable). To me, it seems most likely that if anyone were fooled, then it would be the world-born men of the Nansur and NOT an actual Dunyain. I suspect it's possible that Moe did wield considerable power, however, I think that power was political and not arcane in nature. Case in point: The Scarlet Spires are often referred to as the most powerful school in the Three Seas, yet we know that they are anagogic sorcerers and their arcane power is nothing in comparison to that of the Mandate. Therefore, this power is either political in nature or a reference to their number of sorcerers of rank. It logically leads that the Nansurium's fear of Mallahet/Moe is fear of his political power which is in turn gained from his ability to influence as a Dunyain. His very words may turn Xerius's heart. Beyond that, isn't it Skaeos that says Mallahet is dangerous? Skaeos who we all know is a skin spy. If it is Skaoes that says this, then it leads that his "kind" would be terrified of Moe anyhow. There can be little doubt that the Consult knows anyone that tries to follow him disappears.

The actual power of the Psukhe: We are told time and again in the series that the Psukhe is the least powerful of the sorceries. I know that such a thing as an unreliable narrator exists, but it is generally considered a cheap tactic in literature, and strikes me as something a writer of Bakker's caliber would try to avoid. I chalk up contradictions in the glossary to mistakes by Bakker or things that he just wanted to change rather than the result of unreliable information from narrators/Threes Seas historians. At the very least, the Psukhe is described as being the least refined or the sorceries, a wooden cudgel to the gnosis's steel sword. And, as I said above, Moe was weak in the water. For argument's sake, if he were strong in the water, I still don't believe the Psukhe is sophisticated enough to perform a soul transfer within the magic-nullifying circle of a chorea.

All that being said, Moe's power was too limited for him to still be directing events 20 years after his death. He chose the wrong path as a captive of the Scylvendi, and he wasn't able to deviate from that path. By the time he made it to the Utemot, he likely had no idea magic existed or that it was something he had to account for. He scarred his arms so that he could travel across Scylvendi lands. Realizing that this would make him unwelcome in the Nansur, he picked the only logical path and went south to the Fanim. There, he discovered magic. He had no choice as a Dunyain but to dominate his circumstances and learn magic. At this point he had no way of knowing that the Psukhe was the least powerful magic as he'd likely met no one to tell him otherwise. He blinds himself, believing it would make him more powerful in the Psukhe, and probably discounted the notion that it took passion to carry the most water (just as Bakker made us think that gods may or may not be real until we learn for sure they are in TJE). Blinding himself takes away some of his Dunyain ability (If it was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind), so he is left with weak magic and weakened Dunyain powers. He is still able to orchestrate the events leading to the Holy War, but a lot of that is done through proxy (Maithanet).

I'm saying all this to point out that I don't think it is possible that Meppa=Moe (or is a vessel for Moe's soul) and while I think it is probable that Meppa is one of Moe's former disciples, for the current story I think it is unimportant. I don't think Moe is still directing events, either from beyond the grave or through the sheer intricacy of the plans he laid 20 years previous. Meppa is in the story as a foil for Psatma. I don't think his previous involvement with Moe has any bearing on what is happening in the AE. So the real question is not "Who is Meppa," but rather, "Can Meppa stop Yatwer?" He is, after all, the only one left to defend his faith. Fanayal seems more interested in plowing fields and building an empire.

My 3 cents.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 05, 2016, 04:01:03 pm
Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary  of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?

I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength  Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.

There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 05, 2016, 04:31:21 pm
Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary  of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?

I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength  Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.

There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.

Why doesn't Meppa have a memory? I'm not sure what the answer is to that. I don't think my theory answers every question. I'm just answering things that can definitely be defended with text. But the biggest stretch for an answer (IMO) is that Moe merged his soul with Cnauir and inhabited another body with their soul sandwich. Maybe it's just in there for some intrigue. We may never find out. Or we may find it's something we never considered. Cnauir saying "what am I forgetting" is not foreshadowing for the Moe/Cnauir-soul-meld-quantum-leap. It's just Cnauir being batshit crazy...like we've seen all along.

I think it's a HUGE assumption that Moe "let" himself get stabbed. He was facing a younger Dunyain who still had eyesight. Moe was at a huge physical disadvantage. The whole, "I need your strength" sounds exactly like what someone who had just been stabbed and weakened by a fight would say. I don't recall that he fought off 3 skin spies, but say he did, every action is draining more strength, and after fighting off three, he still has to contend with Cnauir and more skin spies (at least one other), so he uses some Dunyain subterfuge to try and get out of the situation. And Cnauir has direct thoughts AFTER zapping Moe with the chorea. If there were some sort of soul melding and transfer, it would have happened as or before Cnauir rolled the chorea over Moe's face (which everything we are told says would kill Moe). So I don't think the combination of the two embodied by Meppa is possible. If Meppa were just Moe (a soul transfer that doesn't have enough evidence...soul to an inanimate object is too different in my opinion) then perhaps totally losing his memory reprogrammed him enough to be "full of water." But the Moe/Meppa would not have most of the Dunyain advantages. The physical perfection and prowess would be missing. I think you could make the argument that the intellect would be missing because of the Meppa body's human brain.

Can Chorae do things other than negate sorcery? Yes. Mimara does some weird Chorae inversion thing. But she is one of the few, not an actual sorcerer or witch. It's a completely different thing. For Moe to complete a soul melding and transfer, he'd have to use sorcery (and like I said, I don't think the psukhe is sophisticated enough for that) while being a foot away from something that negates sorcery. This is the exact opposite of everything Bakker has told us.

As far as Kellhus leaving the empire to crumble, I think that was the only choice. It's go big or go home when the world is in the balance and he couldn't leave enough resources behind to ensure the empire stayed together.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 04:46:35 pm
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?


You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.


Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.

The way the glossary explains it, Mandate Gnosis is somehow seemingly different (somehow) from Sohonc, but no doubt probably based off the same principles.  The Mangaecca was allegedly one of the other 4 "Original Schools" with the Sohonc, but we don't know what the other two would be.  Then, in a different entry we are told that "some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence" at the dawn of the Apocalypse.  Apparently there are a ton of Gnostic "flavors" it's just that we only know of three, right now: what the Quya use, what the Mandate use, and what the Mangaecca use.  Aurang and/or Shae may well know others though, they've had plenty of time to think about it...

The more I think about it though, the less the Simas-agent seems like an "accident" and yet, I have said before, that I feel the agent must have been in place for years and years, meaning Moe's involvement seems very unlikely.  I think there is a greater mystery afoot...

Mihtrûl  is the name of one of the original schools, they made some of the stuff taken from Wutteats hoard.

I like the idea of a greater mystery.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 05, 2016, 04:51:36 pm
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 05, 2016, 11:28:30 pm
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.



Can you give me some real life examples.

the Skin Spies are said to be new and they managed to reproduce them.

Google it.

Off the top of my head, the look into the creation of post it notes, artificial sugar, and the entire field of modern medicine througo the discovery of penicillin. The list goes on and on.

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Yeah this is the PROBLEM with the theory. who taught the skinspy sorcery. Specifically the Gnosis, only the Mandate and the Consult have Gnostic schools at the time. Various workarounds are using a soul that already knows it.

The Consult is run by a gnostic. Teaching a skin spy would be trivial.
If Moe made it, then he taught it, plain and simple. This is the least difficult problem here imo.

As for Cnaiur being involved with meppa, I doubt it as well. For one, we have a bakker interview stating that Cnaiur story arc is finished.
Aside from that, Cnaiur has passion, but so do tons of people I the three seas. That's not really a valid argument. It applies to too many people.

Any person that already knows the psukhe and saw their school get destroyed would have just as much passion as cnaiur. Seems far more likely that someone escaped Shimeh and got lost in the desert for a time, went crazy, and through said crazy and an danger and passion became meppa.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 11:40:41 pm
All replicated experiments those. It wasn't like they did something and had no idea how they did it or were unable to do it again.

However who taught it sorcery is the torpedo to that theory. So the above is irrelevant anyway :P

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 05, 2016, 11:43:51 pm
All replicated experiments those. It wasn't like they did something and had no idea how they did it or were unable to do it again.

However who taught it sorcery is the torpedo to that theory. So the above is irrelevant anyway :P



Your question was to tell you what fortuitous accidents happened in science, not what single event happens once in science and never happened again. In that case, Google repeatability of famously science experiments. Tons of psychology studies and lots of medical case studies are non repeatable. It happens all the time. Or instead of google, try the science subforum here. There are discussions and articles posted on this very subject all over there.

The way humans do science is very unscientific most of the time


Who taught it sorcery is the easiest question to answer. I don't see how it's a torpedo to anything.

Also, I'm terribly dissapointed no one took up my earlier post :(
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 11:50:41 pm
I meant accidents that could not be replicated. Here is the conversation

"Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne"< me

"Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing"< you

Not being able to replicate the experiment has been my problem, not it happening randomly. Sorry if i wasn't more explicit.

It torpedos the idea of Moe teaching it, and possibly by extension any involvement by Moe in it's creation.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2016, 12:09:53 am
I meant accidents that could not be replicated. Here is the conversation
No worries, I was being needlessly specific to avoid the issue because I couldn't think of anything initially that satisfied your actual question. I tried to do a better job above. If you want links so you dont have to go hunting, let me know.



I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 02:53:01 pm
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.

Yes, he had his snakes. I don't think seeing through snakes would be the same or near as good as seeing through human eyes. Didn't Inri ascend in Shimeh? Isn't that the whole reason for wanting to retake the city?
I think you and I just disagree vastly on this, MSJ. I don't think anything happened here other than what we see. I suspect, if anything, this was setting up a reason as to why Kellhus might have destroyed the Dunyain in Ishual.


I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.

Agree. This is my problem with the Meta-Moe theory as well.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 03:02:31 pm
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.

Revealing Simas was just to ease that transition, but not all all necessary for his plans, regardless of the outcome. Why not teach the skin-spy sorcery himself and make it into some ultra-uber-meta-psukhe-gnositic-diamos wizard that he could wield to destroy the world, rather than sending it off to some dusty library to rot and then out it himself?

A tool of such fast importance and power would not be so easily disposed for no perceptible gain.

And, by the same arguments those of you posted above, if he did it once, why not do it a million times? Make a whole army, hell a whole nation, THE WORLD EVEN, of skin-spy Psukhari absolutely dominated by him and preciously attuned to his will?  They would be unconquerable, and he wouldn't need to send for his son off in Ishual to muck up his plans, or waste his time with silly Maithanet and his tenuous grasp on the Thousand Temples.

This is why the Meta-Moenghus argument is ridiculous. The Psukhe ruins the plot of the books if its allowed to continue. Having Moe be a master of the psukhe AND the tekne... C'mon. He only had 30 years wallowing in the basement of some old mansion with bad plumbing.

Yeah, if he had the ability to make sorcerous skin spies it would have made more sense to build an army of them.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 06, 2016, 03:11:05 pm
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 04:06:35 pm
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

Ha ha. Nice!

Do you have a page number for the "eyes" reference?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 04:19:34 pm
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 04:45:57 pm
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.

Didn't she give birth on top of a temple in Shimeh?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 06, 2016, 04:52:28 pm
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.

Didn't she give birth on top of a temple in Shimeh?

Yeah, she did:

Quote
She had delivered him in Shimeh upon the Holy Juterum, where the Latter Prophet, Inri Sejenus, had ascended to the Heavens two thousand years previous.

Quote
Theliopa had come second, born in Nenciphon while Kellhus waged the first of many wars against the drugged princes of Nilnamesh.

Quote
Her third child by Kellhus, Serwa, was born in Carythusal with the smell of the Zaudunyani conquest still on the wind—soot and death.

The rest aren't specified, but it's kind of implied that they are born at the Andiamine Heights.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 05:06:24 pm
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.

Yes, he had his snakes. I don't think seeing through snakes would be the same or near as good as seeing through human eyes. Didn't Inri ascend in Shimeh? Isn't that the whole reason for wanting to retake the city?
I think you and I just disagree vastly on this, MSJ. I don't think anything happened here other than what we see. I suspect, if anything, this was setting up a reason as to why Kellhus might have destroyed the Dunyain in Ishual.


I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.

Agree. This is my problem with the Meta-Moe theory as well.

Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.".  No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.

The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.

In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.

Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together.  And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.

Its ok that we disagree, but this isn't just a dream I'm dreaming up. A hopeful wish that Moe and Cnaüir live on through Meppa. There are clues before and after TTT that lead me to the conclusion that something was afoot by Moe in Kyudea. He is Dunyain after all, and Dunyain dominate circumstance. Kellhus kicking of the skull is my clue that it wasn't Kellhus that was dominating circumstance as he thought there in Kyudea.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 06, 2016, 05:29:27 pm
There are two stated places for Ascension. Where Esme gave birth as stated above and also according to the Tractate as stated in the appendix under Ascension..

Quote
" the Tractate seems to suggest Kyudea and not Shimeh was the location".

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 05:31:09 pm

Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.".  No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.

Yes, I agree that we are miles apart on this. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, I am using the term Meta-Moe for any theory that supports Moe have a significant influence in the second trilogy. And yes, I think he had to call his son because he painted himself into too much of a corner to do it alone. If he had the power to completely control the Cishaurim, he could have convinced the Fanim to declare a holy war against the Inrithi and asserted domination that way.

The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.

I'm not choosing to ignore clues. We have both read the same passage and determined that there are clues. We just disagree as to what those clues point to :)


In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.


Maybe it's not because of the JE itself, but in my opinion, if a chorae negates sorcery, then sorcery should not be able to manipulate or chorae or take place within one's sphere of influence.

Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together.  And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.

This I think is the heart of where we differ. Since sorcery is a known quantity on Earwa, I don't think a lone sorcerer (the las Cishaurim!) showing up is deus ex machina in the slightest, but I think the appearance of a character we assume to be dead would be. But that's me. I am glad we have this board to hash out these ideas on, because it has changed my opinion on a lot of things in these books :)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 06:35:23 pm
Well, look at the bright side of things. After the next two books in sure I'll be able to say, "I told ya so!". Lol, or vice versa.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 06, 2016, 06:36:29 pm
Well, while it often doesn't seem like it, I am not a real adherent to the "Moe is and was behind everything" theory.  But I also don't buy that the Kyudea conversation and events were Kellhus in control and Moe simply being out-witted in a sense and overmatched.  I feel like Moe had conditioned Kyudea and was ready and that events never were completely beyond what he had figured, even if they possibly didn't turn out exactly as he wanted.

That being said, Meppa's lack of memory is, in my mind, one of two things really, either a total red-herring or deeply meaningful.  I don't see why that red-herring would even need to be there though, Bakker doesn't seem like the kind of author just to put things in there to just fuck with us.  Therefor, I feel like Meppa's origin is important.  The other most important Cishaurim that we know of was Moe.  Therefor, a Moe-Meppa connection seems plausible to me, even if it raises some odd questions about the Psukhe, soul transfers, and Cnaiur.

I just can't believe that Meppa stumbles out of the desert a very powerful Cishaurim with no past memory and that isn't something very important.  Even if Meppa isn't Moe, I still think something was up with connection between the two, somehow.  There is the possibility that the rest of the Cishaurim, realizing that Shimeh was lost and the rest of them doomed, hid Meppa, but that doesn't really fit with their MO, in my mind.  I could see Moe doing such a thing though.

Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: profgrape on April 06, 2016, 07:42:51 pm
Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.

That theory has recently become my favorite.  I got to thinking, "what if the Gods are behind everything?"  And then assigned a God to each major force in TAA.  The Solitary God is the logical option for Fanayal and Meppa.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on April 06, 2016, 07:50:15 pm
The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 06, 2016, 07:59:26 pm
Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.

That theory has recently become my favorite.  I got to thinking, "what if the Gods are behind everything?"  And then assigned a God to each major force in TAA.  The Solitary God is the logical option for Fanayal and Meppa.

Yeah, I mean, it's got the kind of ring that the WLW and Judging Eye have, not to mention whatever Kel's voice is and whatever Sorweel will become.  I still have the bias that he must have been connected somehow besides just "chosen by the Solitary God" but I admit it's as plausible, if not more so, as anything else.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 08:05:39 pm


I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.



I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 08:22:30 pm
Not that it's an advantage. Just that Kellhus is blind to the advantages it offers. Have you read Locke's stuff on Kellhus's fallibility? Good reading, and true. Kellhus is wrong many times throughout PoN. I'm not trying to convince you and hell you could very well be right, Blackstone. I just believe there is ton of evidence to the contrary.

ETA: summon Madness to provide link
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 09:27:13 pm
Quote
That being said, Meppa's lack of memory is, in my mind, one of two things really, either a total red-herring or deeply meaningful.  I don't see why that red-herring would even need to be there though, Bakker doesn't seem like the kind of author just to put things in there to just fuck with us.  Therefor, I feel like Meppa's origin is important.  The other most important Cishaurim that we know of was Moe.  Therefor, a Moe-Meppa connection seems plausible to me, even if it raises some odd questions about the Psukhe, soul transfers, and Cnaiur.

Well said H, and I wish I could put my thoughts to pan as well as you. Anyhow, this is crucial to me also. If Meppa was just the last Cishaurim who was his away and found his way to Fanayal, there would be nothing in TAE to even assume something want down in Kyudea. Now, a wondering Cish who has no memory and has an ocean of Water to dispense, piques my interest. Because, the one thing Moe was lacking to become a powerful Cish was passion. And, Cnaüir was full of it. If you ask why I think the chorae was involved in this, is because Moe knew Cnaüir would have his chorae. Also, themerchant's idea of chorae involving the souls of the unborn makes it even more compelling.

As for Meppa just being the Solitary God's avatar, well that could very well be the case. I just feel as we discuss these books, more and more evidence stacks up for Meppa being a product of Moe's plans in Kyudea.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: profgrape on April 06, 2016, 10:01:18 pm
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2016, 10:04:55 pm
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 10:52:55 pm
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 07, 2016, 12:55:06 am
But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

In all honesty buddy, I have absolutely no clue. I'm just spitballing here. If I Could out think the RSB I'd be writing my own novels. Pure speculation, and what little bit I can pull outta thin air.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 07, 2016, 12:02:25 pm
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

Well, it could be that Moe simply (intentionally or not) created a vessel for the Solitary God to pour all that Water into.  It doesn't necessarily have to be that Moe is actually guiding Meppa or anything, if (a big if) they are in fact connected.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 07, 2016, 02:19:56 pm
But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

In all honesty buddy, I have absolutely no clue. I'm just spitballing here. If I Could out think the RSB I'd be writing my own novels. Pure speculation, and what little bit I can pull outta thin air.

Ha ha. Touche. Same here.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2016, 02:22:05 pm
The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.



I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.



I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: profgrape on April 07, 2016, 03:27:14 pm
A potential theory on the Moe/Meppa connection: Moe might have hidden him away with the intent of his being Kellhus' assassin. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: H on April 07, 2016, 03:29:02 pm
I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

In my mind, it's the change in perspective that makes blindness in Earwa special.  Losing sight means you rely more on the rest of the senses, are less inclined to be swayed by appearances.  See Xin's blindness for example, his comment about smelling asses.  While it's a joke, it's really not; once the appearance is gone, we all shit, i.e., we're all made of the same crap.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.

I think it's less that blindness is an advantage, per se, it's just a paradigm shift.  Sometimes that might be an advantage, sometimes (OK, actually most of the time) not.  That doesn't mean that Moe's blindness made him more powerful, but it does mean he had a different perspective, a different perceptive, view of the world.

I'm not buying Moe as still a prime mover past Kyudea.  But I'm also not buying the Kyudea incident at face value.

I'm not buying Meppa as a random shelp that the Solitary God just happened to find, but I'm also not buying, per se, that he is Moe's physical form, only entertaining the possibility of perhaps some sort of transference.

A potential theory on the Moe/Meppa connection: Moe might have hidden him away with the intent of his being Kellhus' assassin. 

I had thought of a similar thing, that Meppa could have been some kind of Cishaurim back-up plan, if not Moe's.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: themerchant on April 07, 2016, 05:07:24 pm
Something that always stood out for me,in a small way, was Moe hearing Cnaiur and the SkinSpies before Kellhus did, i always thought that was a shout to other senses being better after losing one. that might be a myth though.

Also if Kellhus recognised Cnaiur from his heartbeat could Moe have done so?
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: profgrape on April 07, 2016, 05:21:16 pm
It's not that your hearing is better, exactly. Only that we can use what we hear to generate a mental conception of space -- seeing with your ears, in a sense.  So more of a brain thing than an ear thing.

I can only imagine that a blind dunyain would have far greater spatial awareness than one would think.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2016, 06:42:19 pm
I can only imagine that a blind dunyain would have far greater spatial awareness than one would think.

Several known cases of blind people learning to use echolocation to 'see' - literally making audible clicks to form mental images of the surroundings. I'm sure a Dunyain would be quite efficient at moving around in the dark.

Something that always stood out for me,in a small way, was Moe hearing Cnaiur and the SkinSpies before Kellhus did, i always thought that was a shout to other senses being better after losing one. that might be a myth though.

Also if Kellhus recognised Cnaiur from his heartbeat could Moe have done so?

I agree, and like profgrape mentions, I believe the brain re-defines unsused section of the brain, that would have been used for sight or what have you, to work with other sensory inputs. So basically the brain space allocated for the remaining senses is augmented. He would be able to hear, and like Xin says, smell, etc., better than Kellhus.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on April 07, 2016, 07:10:30 pm
The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.



I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.



I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2016, 07:34:02 pm
I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

If that is in fact the case, then as Blackstone mentions, why aren't all the Dunyain blind? To me that seems like a pretty large leap of faith to say darkness=blindness. Aren't you taking something completely metaphorical (ie darkness - meaning ignorance and/or something unknowable) and equating it with something narrow and concrete?

Why does darkness = blindness from the Dunyain perspective? Why not darkness = caves, deep oceans, black skinned peoples, night, black bears, or any other noun that is dark, if darkness has to be anything so specific?

If they meant, specifically, that "blindness comes before", wouldn't they have just gone with that instead of bothers with the vague metaphor of darkness? That doesn't make sense to me.
It explicitly says darkness, which you are interpreting through a chain of reasoning to equate to blindness. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but wouldnt that be an implicit reference? (not that the distinction is important since I know what you're saying and I'm probably wrong since I'm no good at word games).

We have instances of blind people just being blind people, like Xin. And also, non-blind people being special, like Sorweel or pick anyone else. What necessitates the blind connection to Dunyain mythos and their specialness in Earwa?

Anyway, the first thing you said is that sight=blindness.
So you're saying sight=blindness, blindness=darkness, therefore sight="the darkness that comes before"? :P. Again just playing with your words.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

Which is great, except that Earwa is a meaningful world. Wouldn't that make a popular belief shift far more important? Also, see below

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.
Then what does a 'meaningful world' actually mean? Or are you saying Earwa is functionally the same as our meaningless world? I admit, its not a topic I understand at all, so I could use a bit of a primer on your thoughts.

Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.
They certainly do, but why is blindness the most important thing here? I don't remember the timeline exactly, but is the thousand thousand halls trial the first major trial or the last? I thought the "the logos is without beginning or end" mantra meditation was the culmination of the dunyain training.
If TTH is the final trial, then its a fair point. In that case, I'd argue its just a physical challenge to further test them, rather than the blindness itself being whats important, but I don't think there's any way to reconcile our two POVs in this particular instance.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: locke on April 07, 2016, 09:07:04 pm
Awesome finding that word game hole. I loled

A meaningful world doesn't have to equate to a belief makes reality world.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: MSJ on April 07, 2016, 09:33:13 pm
Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. ;) Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 07, 2016, 10:17:02 pm
Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. ;) Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.

HA! We shall see, my friend. We shall see.
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: geoffrobro on April 07, 2016, 11:15:26 pm
The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.



I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.



I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

Dunyain and blindness, my mind jumps to a couple parts in the books, most of which you have all covered. But the part when The Holy War first enters Caraskand and Kellhus is being chased by the group of skin-spies. In the darkness of that house Kellhus gain an advantage over the Skin-spies in the dark. As if he was trained to fight in pitch black darkness.
And maybe the "trail in the wildness" Kellhus goes thru at the beginning of the series was to learn that witnessing the world, that blindness is truer then vision in Earwa, but Kellhus failed. 
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Somnambulist on April 13, 2016, 11:38:56 pm
Folks, the debate is over.  I figured out who Meppa is without a doubt.  Look inside only if you want to rot your soul FOREVER.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meppa is X (II)
Post by: Blackstone on April 14, 2016, 02:22:42 pm
Folks, the debate is over.  I figured out who Meppa is without a doubt.  Look inside only if you want to rot your soul FOREVER.

(click to show/hide)
Ha ha ha. Awesome.