I'm rereading and I could have sworn Conphas used a mass rape of Scylvendi prisoners to provoke an attack? But I read the initial fight and it doesn't appear? Did I fail to read it, or does it happen in a latter battle? Or am I from an alternate time line where it's in the book?  :shock:  :lol:

Should we start up a forum reread?

I think a separate topic/thread per chapter would be a good idea, because it leaves the reread more open ended, hard for people to join into a single reread mega thread per book.

I do not believe we really know why. Kellhus feeds Cnaiur a very believable story about a roaming Sranc band that stumbles across the citadel. Supposedly the band was quickly killed and Moe was sent out to recon and discover if Ishual secret was safe. Upon return he is sent into exile due to being tainted. This is a very believable story until one considers that Kellhus did not even know what a sranc track looked like so he had to ask Leweth. Additionally after fighting the sranc band, prior to meeting the non-man he questions, what manner of creatures are these? Then when he is about to engage the nonman in a fight he thinks, Another one of Leweth's myths come true. All this leads me to believe that the story Kel told Cnaiur is a fabrication and that we still don't know the real reason Moe was sent out.

Apologizes to Blackstone.

Blackstone had asked which of the five tribes the Kianene descended from.

I'm not sure what happened but I'm assuming Sideris responded with "They too are Ketyai," from a smartphone and it posted five times. I attempted to delete his multiple comments only and it deleted the thread. I'll talk to forumer support and see if they've any ideas.

Cheers.

Now that the reread project has reached Chapter 15, I feel it's time to take a look at the only onscreen Seswatha Dream in The Darkness That Comes Before.  The Celmomian Prophecy.  This dream occurs in Chapter one--we will call the chapter one iteration SD1.1--and it occurs in Chapter fifteen--we will the chapter 15 iteration SD1.2.  The Warrior Prophet Chapter 1 continuation of this dream (via Nautzera) will be referred to as SD1.3.

As far as I can recall, this is the only Seswatha dream that is repeated on screen, and extremely few Seswatha dreams of this variety are had over the course of the five books--at least from Achamian's perspective.  So its repetition is all the more interesting, so let's go through line by line and look at how they compare and contrast, all Italics are as in the original, and watch carefully because they change from 1.1 to 1.2.

Quote

SD1.1
Achamian watched Anasûrimbor Celmomas, the last High King of Kûniüri, fall beneath the hammer of a baying Sranc chieftain. Even though Achamian cried out, he knew with the curious half-awareness belonging to dreams that the greatest king of the Anasûrimbor Dynasty was already dead—had been dead for more than two thousand years. And he knew, moreover, that it was not he himself who wailed, but a far greater man. Seswatha.

The words boiled to his lips. The Sranc chieftain flailed through blistering fire, collapsed into a bundle of rags and ash. More Sranc swept the summit of the hill and more died, struck down by the unearthly lights summoned by his song. Beyond, he glimpsed a distant dragon, like a figure of bronze in the setting sun, hanging above warring fields of Sranc and Men, and he thought: The last Anasûrimbor King has fallen. Kûniüri is lost.

Crying out the name of their king, the tall knights of Trysë surged about him, sprinting over the Sranc he had burned and falling like madmen upon the masses beyond. With a knight whom he did not know, Achamian dragged Anasûrimbor Celmomas through the frantic cries of his vassals and kinsmen, through the smell of blood, bowel, and charred flesh. In a small clearing, he pulled the King’s broken body across his lap.

SD1.2
And then Achamian found himself on the Fields of Eleneöt, dragging the broken body of a great High King from the clamour of war.

As can be seen here, SD1.1 offers a longer introduction, and SD1.2 picks up only at the ending.  the primary repetition here is of the King's broken body, but in 1.1, a knight helps to drag the body, in 1.2 the implication is that Achamian alone drug the body alone, but this is minor and not conclusive, nor all that important a discrepancy.

Quote

SD1.1
Celmomas’s blue eyes, ordinarily so cold, beseeched him. “Leave me,” the grey-bearded king gasped.

SD1.2
Celmomas’s blue eyes beseeched him. “Leave me,” the grey-bearded king gasped.

Quote

SD1.1
“No,” Achamian replied. “If you die, Celmomas, all is lost.” The High King smiled despite his ruined lips. “Do you see the sun? Do you see it flare, Seswatha?”

SD1.2
“No . . . If you die, Celmomas, all is lost.”

SD1.2
But the High King smiled through ruined lips. “Do you see the sun? Do you see it flare, Seswatha?”

Note that in the kindle edition at least, these are broken into separate paragraphs in SD1.2 but not in SD1.1.

Quote

SD1.1
“The sun sets,” Achamian replied.

SD1.2
“The sun sets,” Achamian replied, tears now spilling across his cheeks.

Quote

SD1.1
“Yes! Yes. The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me.”

SD1.2
“Yes! Yes . . . The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me.”

Quote

SD1.1
“You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!”

SD1.2
“You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!”

Quote

SD1.1
The High King shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes. “They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”

SD1.2
The High King shook his head, tears streaming from curiously tender eyes. “They call to me. They say my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours . . . Yours, Seswatha.”

Significant change in italics here.

Quote

SD1.1
“No,” Achamian whispered.

SD1.2
“No,” Achamian whispered.

Quote

SD1.1
“The sun! Can you see the sun? Feel it upon your cheek? Such revelations are hidden in such simple things. I see! I see so clearly what a bitter, stubborn fool I have been . . . And to you, you most of all, have I been unjust. Can you forgive an old man? Can you forgive a foolish old man?”

SD1.2
“The sun! Can you see the sun? Feel it upon your cheek? Such revelations are hidden in such simple things. I see! I see so clearly what a bitter, stubborn fool I have been . . . And to you, you most of all, have I been unjust. Can you forgive an old man? Can you forgive a foolish old man?”

Quote

SD1.1
“There’s nothing to forgive, Celmomas. You’ve lost much, suffered much.”

SD1.2
“There is nothing to forgive, Celmomas. You’ve lost much, suffered much.”

Quote

SD1.1
“My son . . . Do you think he’ll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?”

SD1.2
“My son . . . Do you think he’ll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?”

Quote

SD1.1
“Yes . . . As his father, and as his king.”

SD1.2
“Yes. As his father and as his king.”

Quote

SD1.1
“Did I ever tell you,” Celmomas said, his voice cracking with futile pride, “that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?”

SD1.2
“Did I ever tell you,” Celmomas said, his voice cracking with heartbroken pride, “that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?”

Quote

SD1.1
“Yes.” Achamian smiled through his tears. “Many times, old friend.”

SD1.2
“Yes.” Achamian smiled through his tears. “Many times, old friend.”

Quote

SD1.1
“How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again.”

SD1.2
“How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again.”

Quote

SD1.1
The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. “I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!”

SD1.2
The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. “I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!”

Note the italics change here! and there are some other minor discrepencies, but my commentary will have to wait til this is all posted.

Quote

SD1.1
“Shush . . . Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming.”

SD1.2
“Shush . . . Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming.”

Quote

SD1.1
“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha—an Anasûrimbor will return . . .” A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth.

SD1.2
“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort . . . He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha. An Anasûrimbor will return—” The High King winced and shuddered. Spittle hissed through clenched teeth.

Major italics shift here.

Quote

SD1.1
“At the end of the world.”

SD1.2
“—at the end of the world.”

Quote

SD1.1
The bright eyes of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II, White Lord of Trysë, High King of Kûniüri, went blank. And with them, the evening sun faltered, plunging the bronze-armoured glory of the Norsirai into twilight

SD1.2
Then the shining eyes of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II, White Lord of Trysë, High King of Kûniüri, grew slack and dull. The evening sun flashed then flickered out, and the gleaming bronze of the Norsirai host paled in the No-God’s twilight.

Quote

SD1.1
“Our King!” Achamian cried to the stricken men encircling him. “Our King is dead!”

SD1.2
“Our King!” Achamian cried to the grim knights about him. “Our King is dead!”

SD1.3Pitched from nightmare to nightmare, Achamian at last found the sleeping man he sought: Nautzera in his dream, seated on blood-muddied turf, cradling a dead king on his lap. “Our King is dead!” Nautzera cried in Seswatha’s voice. “Anasûrimbor Celmomas is dead!”

Quote

SD1.3
An unearthly roar hammered his ears. Achamian whirled, raising his hands against a titanic shadow.

Wracu … Dragon.

Billowing gusts staggered those standing, waved the arms of those fallen. Cries of dismay and horror rifled the air, then a cataract of boiling gold engulfed Nautzera and the High King’s attendants. There was no time for screams. Teeth cracked. Bodies tumbled like coals from a kicked fire.

Achamian turned and saw Nautzera amid a field of smoking husks. Shielded by his Wards, the sorcerer laid the dead king on the ground, whispering words Achamian could not hear but had dreamed innumerable times: “Turn your soul’s eye from this world, dear friend … Turn so that your heart might be broken no more.”

With the force of a toppled tower, the dragon thundered to earth, his descent yanking smoke and ash into towering veils. Portcullis jaws clacked shut. Wings like war-galley sails stretched out. The light of burning corpses shimmered across iridescent scales of black.

“Our Lord,” the dragon grated, “hath tasted thy King’s passing, and he saith, ‘It is done.’”

Nautzera stood before the golden-horned abomination. “Not while I draw breath, Skafra!” he cried. “Never!”

Laughter, like the wheezing of a thousand consumptive men. The Great Dragon reared his bull-chest above the sorcerer, revealing a necklace of steaming human heads.

“Thou art overthrown, sorcerer. Thy tribe hath perished, dashed like a potter’s vessel by our fury. The earth is sown with thy nation’s blood, and soon thine enemies will compass thee with bent bow and whetted bronze. Wilt thou not repent thy folly? Wilt thou not abase thyself before our Lord?”

“As do you, mighty Skafra? As the exalted Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain abases himself?”

Membranes flickered across the dragon’s quicksilver eyes. A blink. “I am not a God.”

Nautzera smiled grimly. Seswatha said, “Neither is your lord.”

Great stamping limbs and the gnashing of iron teeth. A cry from furnace lungs, as deep as an ocean’s moan and as piercing as an infant’s shriek.

Uncowed by the dragon’s thrashing bulk, Nautzera suddenly turned to Achamian, his face bewildered.

“Who are you?”

“One who shares your dreams …”

For a moment they were like two men drowning, two souls kicking for sharp air … Then darkness. The silent nowhere that housed men’s souls.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 328-343). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Just letting everyone know that Bakker posted a selection of Light, Time, and Gravity[/u] at Three Pound Brain.

I cannot wait for this book. But then I seem to mesh with everything Bakker has written.

Cheers, Bakker. Can't wait to read more.

Some more food for thought. I'm sure those of you intrigued by our initial readings of Light, Time, and Gravity or any literature enthusiasts will appreciate how quickly this can get out of hand.

Let the games begin.

One of the hallmarks of Literature - capital for genre distinction - is ciphers and cryptography. I feel that Bakker plays with this trope consistently in all his books but immediately this conception comes to the fore of LTG. Bakker seems to write for specific audiences - we follow him across genres as far as his common ideas resonate with us - and LTG seems his Literature title. Since it's a common deception in Literature and one that is successful to the extant it is subtle and hidden, I thought I might take this as a frame for my perspective here.

Encouraging the premise of riddles is the fact of LTG's organization.

Firstly, and many readers on TPB seemed to do this, there is the option to read it as a style of choose your own adventure, really ride "your" personal reading experience to the extreme.

Secondly, there is the idea that the numbers could be rearranged. dietl first suggested on TPB that 19 was missing from Book One: Irrigation and that there are entries titled X. However, as I'll highlight later, there are a number of missing entries but it is impossible to "rearrange" them into a chronology because they are in fact missing - excepting the 19s.

Thirdly, you could rearrange the entries by the years they take place. This would probably give you the most complete alternate reading out of the entries - barring some sort of "correct" arrangement in answer to the riddles - but you'd still be at odds as to where to put the (Childhood), (Adolescence), (Indeterminate), (Inapplicable), and (Present).

Now I'm going to posit that Bakker is clever and intelligent and, likely, there is another complete reading of LTG.

So here are some haphazard scribbles. Please correct my mistakes in record and offer your own musings. I will try and include some linguistically motivated evidence for "twests," as our boy M. Night would say. I certainly have some ideas concerning Cutter, Dylan, It, and Suicide.

Cutter dies in 1986.
The Odometer reads 84001.
Dylan is 19.

Book One: Irrigation

Entry #2 is missing.
Entry #19 is missing.
Two Entry #X's between 88 and 89.
Entry #19 is the last entry of Book One and very ambiguously tantalizing.

The entries in Book One are dated 1975, 81, 84, 85, 88, 89, 94, 95, 2002, Childhood, Adolescence, Indeterminate, Inapplicable, and Present.

There are no footnotes in Book One.

Book Two: Harvest

Three Entry #X's between 2 and 3, 6 and 7, and 105 and 106.
Entry #19 is missing.
Entry #73 is missing.
Entry #82 is missing.
Entry #86 is missing.
Entry #88 is missing.
Entry #93 is missing.
Entry #110 is missing.
Entry #19 is the last entry of Book Two.

The entries in Book Two include the dates of Book One and introduce 1986, 96, and 97.

A specific Layer of Revelation to keep in mind upon any reread is the difference in perspectives before and after Cutter's murder. Also, we don't know when the (Present) entries were written - Dylan's Manuscript is published 2011 but the latest entry besides Present is '02.

Also, the last excerpt LTG XIII strikes me as strangely odd - the story veers quite suddenly as you realize that half of the perspectives were a murderer's. And why the introduction of the 84001 obsession?

Finally, there is the issue Callan brought up of just who wrote Susan Fennel's name on the manuscript "in a hand distinct from Dylan's own, no less."

My biggest question right now is why Dylan committed suicide pursuing the gestalt that Neil-It accomplishes in Neuropath?

Cheers. The day is young - shit weather - but I got to stay on the move. Will reconnect later.