The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => Philosophy & Science => Topic started by: sciborg2 on February 09, 2014, 02:20:49 am
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Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i5J_NhWde34)
If people have been curious about the pilot wave, or Bohm's Implicate Order, this is a good introduction.
Also gets into Bohm's ideas related to consciousness.
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Bohm on Wholeness and Fragmentation. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gECGiVCLWhY)
It's fascinating to hear about the metaphysical speculations of these guys who first studied quantum mechanics.
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Sci, sometimes I suspect that you might be another person on this forum that might consider without prejudice the idea that determinism is unlikely from the perspective of mathematical complexity and quantum physics.
The times I have tried to broach the subject here have led to responses that I equate to taking my atheistic stance against religion, so I am generally loathe to attempt such pointless discussion.
Are you familiar with Orch-OR theory and Wigner's 'consciousness causes collapse' theory?
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On consciousness causing the collapse of the wave function, I get the gist of it but have not really looked too deeply into the idea. All to say links are welcome!
I've definitely heard about Orch-OR...here's what I gather:
Until recent discoveries (http://www.kurzweilai.net/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness) I figured it was one of the more out-there possibilities, though now with the new evidence it seems like it might be in the running.
Penrose seems to be a believer in what I understand to be Popper's three worlds, and as I understand it the brain connects to the mental/mathematical realm via quantum vibrations microtubules? (Apparently a naturalist named Massimo concedes the necessity (http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2012/09/on-mathematical-platonism.html) of such a Platonic realm, so that's something.)
I know John Lucas, who has worked with or at least parallel to Penrose on showing the mind transcends computation, rejects the Platonic stuff but agrees with Penrose about the Godelian Argument showing humanity is capable of creative acts (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/Godel/turn.html) that are not simply results of indeterminism. Sadly my mathematical knowledge is not deep enough to be certain I get the Godelian argument or the rebuttals.
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Here's a video on Oroch-OR with Stuart Hameroff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVQjMf2fEQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVQjMf2fEQ)
Trivially, my friend did some minor lab work for the team he gets defensive about at the start. (He's an organic chemist at ANU RSC).
I don't buy into this wholesale, but it is pretty interesting. Relates to Godel and Hilbert in that the second problem can perhaps be addressed if you consider quantum states. For example, the liar paradox is both T and F until the resolution is observed.
More I want to discuss, I'll likely post more after I get some decent sleep.
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Interview with David Bohm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI66ZglzcO0)
1989 interview @ Copenhagen
Bohm talks about the unity in reality he finds in physics.