Earwa > General Earwa
Mimara's abilities and status as a prophet
ThoughtsOfThelli:
Since my previous thread evolved into a discussion about Mimara, the JE, and her abilities and status as a prophet, I figured it was best to create a brand new thread to continue that particular avenue of discussion.
Right now I don't have anything else to add, but I'll look into a few quotes/passages and see what I can find.
SmilerLoki:
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 01:49:49 pm ---The similarities do give me some pause - as this story takes place in a meaningful world, I find it harder to write off certain things as just coincidences.
--- End quote ---
It's not that I consider it a coincidence, it seems more like an overinterpretation. Small mundane or technical details being assigned much greater significance than they really possess.
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 01:49:49 pm ---Fair enough. I think I'll still go and hunt down quotes (including those from Akka's POV) that refer to Mimara as a prophet, maybe there are some other details there we're not remembering at the moment.
--- End quote ---
It would be great!
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 01:49:49 pm ---You know, tone in the Internet can be misinterpreted sometimes.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely. But I would never be mean to a person in my posts, being mean just isn't worth writing for. Even if I strongly disagree, I would only bring counter arguments, never an ad hominem attack. Especially I would never be mean to you or H, because time and time again you both demonstrate just how polite and respectful you are!
It's just sometimes I skip over considerate phrasing for the sake of being brief.
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 01:49:49 pm ---When you're talking about Mimara's abilities, you're talking about how she used the Chorae to banish the Wight-in-the-Mountain, right?
--- End quote ---
This, and also the fact that she knew about Koringhus's one hundred stones without having any way of knowing about them.
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 01:49:49 pm ---Out of curiosity, let's say your interpretation of "Mimara is deluded and no true prophet" is true. How do you explain this from that point of view? Were there outside circumstances/forces that no one was aware of in-universe that happened to make it work? Were Achamian and the Skin Eaters themselves imagining things to due their general psychological condition at the time?
--- End quote ---
I separate her very real supernatural powers revolving around the Judging Eye and her alleged prophetic status. Prophets are a mystery, while supernatural abilities are existing, shown, and sometimes explained in the series. We have many branches of sorcery, the divine (what the Gods do, in the narrative represented mostly by Ajokli and Yatwer), and the Judging Eye. Those forces are as objectively real in the setting as a fictional supernatural element can be.
Now, does the Judging Eye pertains to or, better yet, answers the question of prophets? This, unlike the shown properties of the Eye, remains unknown.
So when we're talking the Wight incident, I see what Mimara did as an objectively real supernatural power being used in a novel way. Just like Kellhus's first use of the Metagnostic Cant of Translocation in TTT. Even if the mechanics of it aren't explained, it doesn't mean they aren't there. It's not necessarily a miracle.
And I agree, it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief. At least not mine.
P.S. If you're interested, I also outlined my lines of thought on metaphysics of the series here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2267.msg35628#msg35628
Some of it may be outdated by now, but it still shows where I come from.
ThoughtsOfThelli:
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---It's not that I consider it a coincidence, it seems more like an overinterpretation. Small mundane or technical details being assigned much greater significance than they really possess.
--- End quote ---
It's possible. With the small amount of information we're given on this particular subject, overinterpretation will crop up...
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---It would be great!
--- End quote ---
I think I'll only add the quotes to this post when I've gathered enough of them...wall of text incoming. Still, no matter how long it gets, it could be helpful to get all the information on the JE and Mimara's abilities in one place. It will be easier to dissect it that way.
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---Absolutely. But I would never be mean to a person in my posts, being mean just isn't worth writing for. Even if I strongly disagree, I would only bring counter arguments, never an ad hominem attack. Especially I would never be mean to you or H, because time and time again you both demonstrate just how polite and respectful you are!
It's just sometimes I skip over considerate phrasing for the sake of being brief.
--- End quote ---
Ah, it still happens sometimes. You have never been anything other than polite in your comments before either, but my tired brain just went and twisted up that part of your comment, I guess (I still have no idea that my subconscious thought process was there). It's all been cleared up now, it's fine. :)
For the record, I would never do that either, I think we can all have a polite discussion here even if we strongly disagree with each other's points. My experience on this forum so far has been overwhelmingly positive, and it will hopefully remain that way.
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---This, and also the fact that she knew about Koringhus's one hundred stones without having any way of knowing about them.
--- End quote ---
That's right, I had forgotten about that part with Koringhus. (I really need to reread TGO.) I think that there were other moments where Mimara had knowledge about past events that she could not have possibly known otherwise (Galian having raped and murdered a child, etc.). If I remember correctly, those were all linked to the JE, but then again, so was the Wight-in-the-Mountain scene. Was the hundred stones detail something she also learned of via the JE?
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---I separate her very real supernatural powers revolving around the Judging Eye and her alleged prophetic status. Prophets are a mystery, while supernatural abilities are existing, shown, and sometimes explained in the series. We have many branches of sorcery, the divine (what the Gods do, in the narrative represented mostly by Ajokli and Yatwer), and the Judging Eye. Those forces are as objectively real in the setting as a fictional supernatural element can be.
Now, does the Judging Eye pertains to or, better yet, answers the question of prophets? This, unlike the shown properties of the Eye, remains unknown.
So when we're talking the Wight incident, I see what Mimara did as an objectively real supernatural power being used in a novel way. Just like Kellhus's first use of the Metagnostic Cant of Translocation in TTT. Even if the mechanics of it aren't explained, it doesn't mean they aren't there. It's not necessarily a miracle.
And I agree, it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief. At least not mine.
--- End quote ---
I see, it makes sense.
What makes a true prophet is a potential separate topic of discussion by itself. We have some of the prophets acknowledged as such in-universe being dismissed by those of different religions (the Fanim with Inri Sejenus, Psatma Nannaferi's comments about Fane, etc.), for instance (something that is, of course, to be expected). Even the idea that a true prophet has healing powers (that is usually thrown around in discussions about Kellhus and/or Mimara) only comes from Inri Sejenus' particular case, right?
As for the link between the JE and prophets - well, like you said, we don't know enough to reach a conclusion here.
This whole discussion makes me recall a Quorum conversation where it was said that Ajencis seemed to be suspiciously well-informed about how the Outside worked. I speculated that maybe he knew a woman with the JE, and that influenced his ideas. Of course, there is no evidence for this in the text given the lack of information about the JE, but it does make me wonder. The JE has been a known phenomenon for centuries, and probably millennia, that much we know. During my quote-hunting, I reread the scene where Achamian first realizes Mimara has the JE, and he refers to it as "what antique Mandate scholars called the Judging Eye". It could be possible that women with the JE have been sharing their visions with others for thousands of years, and thus contributing to the general perception of the Outside, damnation and so on. (To be clear, I'm not claiming this is actually the case, it's just a theory.) So a relationship, even if tangential, to at least one of the prophets that are know as such in-universe could be at least a possibility?
The tricky thing about prophets is that we just don't know if their miracles were truly such... We can't discount the possibility that (at least) some of them also had supernatural powers of their own which they used in an unprecedented way. I might be going against what I did before and doubting too much now, but your post did make me think of that. Fane, for instance, "was granted miraculous powers" after going blind in the Carathay Desert. The loss of his sight and the life-or-death situation could have lead to him tapping into potential abilities, which eventually became a new branch of sorcery. (The Titirga comparison comes to mind here as well.)
--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 08:56:45 pm ---P.S. If you're interested, I also outlined my lines of thought on metaphysics of the series here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2267.msg35628#msg35628
Some of it may be outdated by now, but it still shows where I come from.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, I'll go ahead and read your analysis. :) I vaguely remember reading this when you first posted it, but it has been quite a while, so revisiting the thread would be a good idea.
SmilerLoki:
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 10, 2018, 06:12:08 pm ---My experience on this forum so far has been overwhelmingly positive, and it will hopefully remain that way.
--- End quote ---
I can only concur!
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 10, 2018, 06:12:08 pm ---Was the hundred stones detail something she also learned of via the JE?
--- End quote ---
As far as I remember, it wasn't clearly stated from her perspective, but Koringhus inferred so. The hundred stones are a strange case. Seeing sin is a known property of the Judging Eye, that's how Mimara sees the rape Galian committed, the things done to the Whale-Mothers, Esmenet's carnal transgressions, etc. But the hundred stones do not carry any overt sinful actions, it's just a detail from Koringhus's past, yet Mimara still somehow knows it.
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 10, 2018, 06:12:08 pm ---Even the idea that a true prophet has healing powers (that is usually thrown around in discussions about Kellhus and/or Mimara) only comes from Inri Sejenus' particular case, right?
--- End quote ---
I think so, yes, though here I'm much less sure than I would like to be. Healing is the biggest gripe with prophets, but we also know that the divine can heal. So someone like Psatma can pass for a prophet. Which she is, in a manner of speaking, though only for one of the Gods. It starts to get very confusing around here.
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 10, 2018, 06:12:08 pm ---This whole discussion makes me recall a Quorum conversation where it was said that Ajencis seemed to be suspiciously well-informed about how the Outside worked.
--- End quote ---
I would say it's the other way around. Our formal understanding of the Outside comes from Ajencis (more specifically, from his quoted opinions), so we see the Outside primarily from his perspective. Therein lies a trap, because his understanding of the Outside isn't truth, it's just one particular model. And Ajencis is already known for a very disputable model, the one that considers the Ark a thing from the Outside (half a crown of Ajokli, no less) as opposed to a space vessel. While an interesting interpretation, it is straight up disproved by Aurang, Wutteat, the Mutilated, and, to a lesser extent, Kellhus (who always talks of the Inchoroi as creatures from the Void).
So when thinking about the Outside, it's important to not rely completely on Ajencis's views, which I always keep in mind when I make statements on the matter.
That being said, previous wielders of the Judging Eye might have easily shaped common perspective of the Outside, too, so the things we see discussed by the characters already contain a collection of facts and accounts, even if they are still mainly influenced by Ajencis (since no other concise model of the Outside is present in the narrative).
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 10, 2018, 06:12:08 pm ---The loss of his sight and the life-or-death situation could have lead to him tapping into potential abilities, which eventually became a new branch of sorcery. (The Titirga comparison comes to mind here as well.)
--- End quote ---
Since Fane is officially the first of the Cishaurim, we can safely assume he wielded Psukhe. Which would be indistinguishable from miracles in that age.
The whole matter of prophets seems to be very important and very unclear. And then there is Bakker talking about Shamans, who were at the same time prophets and sorcerers...
MSJ:
--- Quote ---This, and also the fact that she knew about Koringhus's one hundred stones without having any way of knowing about them.
--- End quote ---
I didn't quote the poster because I'm not sure if it was SL ot ToT...
Koringhus confesses all of this to all of them while the eye is open. Then directly runs off a cliff after the JE approves. Its a difficult scene to interpret, and I could be interpreting it wrongly, I dont think so though. Because, right after the 100 stones, we get this quote.
--- Quote ---“Killing,” a fraction explains to the wondering boy. “Killing connects me to what I am.”
And what are you?
“The Survivor,” another fraction replies, and yet another registers the network of scar tissue across his face, the tug and tension of unnatural compromises.
“The Heaper of the Dead.”
--- End quote ---
Koringhus is confessing most of this out loud in front of not only the JE and Mimara, but also the boy and Akka. Its why I got a kick out of it(shitty sense of humor. I know.), because how much Akka and the Boy are taken aback by the statement. Its known because Koringhus confesses to all...
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