The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Yellow on August 24, 2017, 07:20:09 pm
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Or is actually a skin spy. Even if she's super freaky.
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Or is actually a skin spy. Even if she's super freaky.
I dont know, might be fun?
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I'm not into dick-girls.
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Do skin-spies always have dicks though? I first thought they were like face-dancers, that they could assume a vag or a dick at will like they re-shape their other parts, but several parts indicate that they have dicks all the time. What's the consensus on this?
Also, skin-spies were one of the main reasons I got into SA. They're almost identical to my beloved face-dancers.
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Dude, they do not have dicks, the have pendulous phallases...
Yea. They all are of the largely endowed type, arching with ecstasy against their hard stomachs. Need I continue? They all have penises dude.
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Do skin-spies always have dicks though? I first thought they were like face-dancers, that they could assume a vag or a dick at will like they re-shape their other parts, but several parts indicate that they have dicks all the time. What's the consensus on this?
Also, skin-spies were one of the main reasons I got into SA. They're almost identical to my beloved face-dancers.
I think they probably have both and can adjust. That'd be the best design for hiding. Though, black seed isn't good for hiding either, so I'm not sure.
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If they didn't all have penises at the time of TDTCB, then the Inchoroi really messed up.
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Of course they can have both. They'd be pretty fucking terrible at pretending to be women if you could see their massive boners through their silk dresses.
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Pretty divided opinions here. Might need to ask Bakker himself about this in the next AMA.
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Of course they can have both. They'd be pretty fucking terrible at pretending to be women if you could see their massive boners through their silk dresses.
Just ask Xerius about that...
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Made a new topic.
EDIT: And for the record, I think all Skin-Spies have dicks.
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Yes, I bet for shemale-skin-spies too, lol.
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Lol. I love the thread title and the fact that we have a thread to debate this. LMFAO!!!!
I think it was made clear when Xerius reaches down on Istryia and he gets a handful. Right there that all Skin'Spies have penises. I think it's made clear again with Cnaüir, but I'm not sure. I've never even questioned this reading the books. They have cocks and get slick, arching, raging boners at the thought of blood and death. It is known.
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Of course they can have both. They'd be pretty fucking terrible at pretending to be women if you could see their massive boners through their silk dresses.
Just ask Xerius about that...
This is proof of nothing other than that Skin Spy had its cock turned to "up".
Why would they all have dicks? That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. The Consult create a species that can recreate the build, face, voice, and demeanour of any person in the world... But all the women ones have dicks. And they went undiscovered for 300 years.
Please. ::)
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Well, ok, if you create evidence to the contrary then anything is possible. I go with Whats presented in the book, and every instance they have a penis.
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It was also hinted at this being the case with Istryia in the books when Xerius muses that she cutoff their sexual encounters and instead sent him gifts. It was the skin spies way of not being detected.
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Does that mean that Cnaiür buttsexed the thing posing as Serwë for 20 years? I dunno, I'm still not totally convinced.
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The thing called Serwë is a shemale if I remember well its dick is mentioned at least in TTT.
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If they want to have a duck, they have one. If not, they don't.
EDIT: best autocorrect ever.
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The forum definitely changed in my absence...
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Maybe they have both pendulous dicks and vagina.
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Please, please any and all, show me any textual proof to the contrary that SS's have anything other than cocks. Please. Then this good be a debate. But, its not there is zero evidence other than SS's have penises.
And, whats even more confusing to me is that you guys who claim otherwise, don't get that this is a thematic choice. All throughout this series, and I think this is why Bakker was so confused when being called out by feminists, he made them this way as a statement, so to say, of the male mind. Meaning, it takes being a male, thus having a cock, in order to act in these ways. I won't claim to know exact what his point was, because I don't, but it's something along those lines. SS's all have penises for a reason, and it's an author's choice behind that. Indeed, it would be a great question, because you'll get something way more articulate than I can offer. Though I think it runs along those lines.
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I won't claim to know exact what his point was,
If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it's a deliberate association of the Consult with the real-world 'New Atheist' movement, who are overwhelmingly male and often quite misogynist. There's a strong undercurrent among New Atheists that associates rationality and objectivity with maleness and the irrationality of spirituality (especially 'New Age woo') with supposedly more female modes of thought.
An all-male clique that wants to use scientific-materialism to scrub the world of any hint of spirituality, because they see said spirituality as literally the worst thing ever? Sound familiar? ;)
There's more to it, of course. Bakker's also playing with our socially-conditioned notions of sexual agency - males as active initiators, females as passive, leading to the question of whether only males can commit rape, that sort of thing. A race of violent rapists feel somehow like they should all have penises, which ideally should cause us to question just why we feel that. Likewise, sranc raping male characters is somehow more shocking to our sensibilities than rape of female characters (which feels somehow 'normal' in war). Which, again, should lead to us asking ourselves why is the former more shocking and the latter just the default?
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You saying Bakker is trying to make me feel male-guilt? What an SJW cuck!
The reasoning for assuming skin-spies have vaginas is that for anybody trying to infiltrate nations and organizations by impersonating people, it would be very handy having vaginas.
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You saying Bakker is trying to make me feel male-guilt? What an SJW cuck!
The reasoning for assuming skin-spies have vaginas is that for anybody trying to infiltrate nations and organizations by impersonating people, it would be very handy having vaginas.
That's exactly what I am saying. Bakker and Women thing goes way back. And, there are quotes where Bakker was most offended because people couldn't tell he was a feminist from reading the books. He was pissed off, and that's why all that shit got out of hand. He certainly tries to make men feel things they wouldn't feel in their day-to-day, like rape. It was all done with a purpose, a thematic one, and SS's all having cocks is one of them. Yea, what you propose makes more sense, but it's not true. Again, show me textual evidence that SS's have vaginas. Then will have a real argument here. Otherwise, your adding things to the narrative that just are not there.
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If they didn't all have penises at the time of TDTCB, then the Inchoroi really messed up.
Of course they can have both. They'd be pretty fucking terrible at pretending to be women if you could see their massive boners through their silk dresses.
Just ask Xerius about that...
So as MSJ keeps asking, does anyone have evidence that they don't?
Seems pretty obvious that they are all male...
Why else would they send this particular spy to replace this particular person if they had one that wasn't so obviously... not matching genitals with the replace-ee.
Does that mean that Cnaiür buttsexed the thing posing as Serwë for 20 years? I dunno, I'm still not totally convinced.
You do realize that Cnaiur is gay, right? That's one of the major subversion of his uber-barbarian character. He's a smart barbarian that's crazy, yippee - been done. But he's also gay and extremely emotional conflicted and confused about it, self conscious, drives a lot of his self-loathing and his extreme need to the-most-violent-of-all-men, etc. etc. Its basically core to his character identity... So, better question, why would he want to have sex with a female skin spy, and why have you missed this major part of his character for so long?
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You do realize that Cnaiur is gay, right? That's one of the major subversion of his uber-barbarian character. He's a smart barbarian that's crazy, yippee - been done. But he's also gay and extremely emotional conflicted and confused about it, self conscious, drives a lot of his self-loathing and his extreme need to the-most-violent-of-all-men, etc. etc. Its basically core to his character identity... So, better question, why would he want to have sex with a female skin spy, and why have you missed this major part of his character for so long?
Totally agreed. I've always thought that this was absolutely brilliant. Cnaiur is one of the most complex and best constructed characters ever seen in fantasy books.
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All male, for the reasons pointed out above by MSJ and Duskweaver.
It's woefully less efficient than having female versions as well, but the Inchoroi are consistently inefficient in their aims (why weapon races instead of a super-plague?), and driven always by a stereotypical male sexual aggressiveness (why do the murder monsters have to be rape monsters as well?).
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(why do the murder monsters have to be rape monsters as well?).
Sorry to tangent but Bakker's talked about this one a couple times before. In his mind, the most indigestible horror of modern society seems to be the serial killing rapist.
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If they didn't all have penises at the time of TDTCB, then the Inchoroi really messed up.
Of course they can have both. They'd be pretty fucking terrible at pretending to be women if you could see their massive boners through their silk dresses.
Just ask Xerius about that...
So as MSJ keeps asking, does anyone have evidence that they don't?
Seems pretty obvious that they are all male...
Why else would they send this particular spy to replace this particular person if they had one that wasn't so obviously... not matching genitals with the replace-ee.
Does that mean that Cnaiür buttsexed the thing posing as Serwë for 20 years? I dunno, I'm still not totally convinced.
You do realize that Cnaiur is gay, right? That's one of the major subversion of his uber-barbarian character. He's a smart barbarian that's crazy, yippee - been done. But he's also gay and extremely emotional conflicted and confused about it, self conscious, drives a lot of his self-loathing and his extreme need to the-most-violent-of-all-men, etc. etc. Its basically core to his character identity... So, better question, why would he want to have sex with a female skin spy, and why have you missed this major part of his character for so long?
I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.
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I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.
Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of Cnaüir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.
ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to Cnaüir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, Cnaüir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).
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(why do the murder monsters have to be rape monsters as well?).
Sorry to tangent but Bakker's talked about this one a couple times before. In his mind, the most indigestible horror of modern society seems to be the serial killing rapist.
Ah. Within the confines of the setting it makes sense due to the Inchoroi tendency toward the worst aspects of violent maleness. I was just offering an example toward that (and their general lack of pursuit of cold efficacy), not criticizing the authorial decision.
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(This was an accidental double post from my phone, please disregard and carry on. All is well. We have always been at war with Eastasia.)
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I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.
Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of Cnaüir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.
ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to Cnaüir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, Cnaüir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).
That... actually makes sense. Might need to adjust my opinion here.
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As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.
I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.
At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.
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Wilshire, I think you hit the nail on the head. Moe did bring this out of Cnaüir. What does Cnaüir say when describing the Dunyain? Anyone? Ok. THEY MAKE YOU LOVE!!!!
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In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.
His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.
Despite his barbaric nature and the untold suffering he's caused in the world, his is one of the most tragic fates in the series, to my mind. We see post-Holy War that he is able to earn the admiration and loyalty of his people, and steer them toward at least marginally better ends (ending the internecine strife and standing unified, albeit in support of Apocalypse). What might his life had amounted to had Moenghus not crossed the Steppe?
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As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.
I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.
At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.
Moe most certainly seemed to manipulate him. What Cnaiür would have been had he not been manipulated is certainly open for debate, but, as tradition-bound as the Scylvendi are, it seems unlikely that he would have been substantially different than any other Scylvendi. Slightly different? Yes, because he already was, which is why Moe could manipulate him in the first place. (Granted, Moe could probably have manipulated anyone, but that doesn't mean Cnaiür wasn't more susceptible.)
I think placing a label on Cnaiür is inevitably going to lead to some wrong conclusions. He isn't just gay, or straight, or bi-sexual. He is someone who, placed in a series of literally world-shaping events, simply is (by and large) severely fractured. So, in one way he is straight. And in another clearly not. That is the paradox. That is why he inevitably goes mad. Because who he is cannot be boiled down to a simple label, or a simple narrative to explain it.
And, yeah, skin-spies all are male. So are all Inchoroi and all Wracu. It's probably mostly about how Tekne breeding works. But also about how the Tekne goad works.
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H, I think what opened Cnaüir up to Moe's manipulations was the Wolf. He didn't kill the Wolf like he was supposed to and was in doubt. Moe made it clear that nevertheless he "killed the Wolf". This showed Moe his susceptibility and was the opening by which he took care of Cnaüir. Plus, he gained Moe through his mother, who we know was Moes lover. So, yes Cnaüir was different, but Moe did exactly what you said above, with that wee but of an opening.
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In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.
His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.
I'm on board with all this, my objection was that he was explicitly gay.
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Hmm... damn. I doubt Bakker intended it but not achieving the wolf kill is such an interesting topic. And it explicitly mirrors Kellhus disruption of Sorweel's coming Elking.
I know FB and I have discussed coming of age rituals at length, many times.
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The Skin Spy in the Skin Eaters was referred to as "girl" by its Synthese handler and never displays an erection. My guess is that the Skin Spies have human like genitalia and this is a flaw when impersonating members of the opposite sex.