[MSJ]

I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.

Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of Cnaüir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.

ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to Cnaüir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, Cnaüir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).

[solipsisticurge]

(why do the murder monsters have to be rape monsters as well?).

Sorry to tangent but Bakker's talked about this one a couple times before. In his mind, the most indigestible horror of modern society seems to be the serial killing rapist.

Ah. Within the confines of the setting it makes sense due to the Inchoroi tendency toward the worst aspects of violent maleness. I was just offering an example toward that (and their general lack of pursuit of cold efficacy), not criticizing the authorial decision.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[solipsisticurge]

(This was an accidental double post from my phone, please disregard and carry on. All is well. We have always been at war with Eastasia.)

[TLEILAXU]

I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.

Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of Cnaüir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.

ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to Cnaüir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, Cnaüir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).

That... actually makes sense. Might need to adjust my opinion here.

[Wilshire]

As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.

I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.

At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.

[MSJ]

Wilshire, I think you hit the nail on the head. Moe did bring this out of Cnaüir. What does Cnaüir say when describing the Dunyain? Anyone? Ok. THEY MAKE YOU LOVE!!!!

[solipsisticurge]

In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.

His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.

Despite his barbaric nature and the untold suffering he's caused in the world, his is one of the most tragic fates in the series, to my mind. We see post-Holy War that he is able to earn the admiration and loyalty of his people, and steer them toward at least marginally better ends (ending the internecine strife and standing unified, albeit in support of Apocalypse). What might his life had amounted to had Moenghus not crossed the Steppe?

[H]

As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.

I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.

At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.

Moe most certainly seemed to manipulate him.  What Cnaiür would have been had he not been manipulated is certainly open for debate, but, as tradition-bound as the Scylvendi are, it seems unlikely that he would have been substantially different than any other Scylvendi.  Slightly different?  Yes, because he already was, which is why Moe could manipulate him in the first place.  (Granted, Moe could probably have manipulated anyone, but that doesn't mean Cnaiür wasn't more susceptible.)

I think placing a label on Cnaiür is inevitably going to lead to some wrong conclusions.  He isn't just gay, or straight, or bi-sexual.  He is someone who, placed in a series of literally world-shaping events, simply is (by and large) severely fractured.  So, in one way he is straight.  And in another clearly not.  That is the paradox.  That is why he inevitably goes mad.  Because who he is cannot be boiled down to a simple label, or a simple narrative to explain it.


And, yeah, skin-spies all are male.  So are all Inchoroi and all Wracu.  It's probably mostly about how Tekne breeding works.  But also about how the Tekne goad works.

[MSJ]

H, I think what opened Cnaüir up to Moe's manipulations was the Wolf. He didn't kill the Wolf like he was supposed to and was in doubt. Moe made it clear that nevertheless he "killed the Wolf". This showed Moe his susceptibility and was the opening by which he took care of Cnaüir. Plus, he gained Moe through his mother, who we know was Moes lover. So, yes Cnaüir was different, but Moe did exactly what you said above, with that wee but of an opening.

[TLEILAXU]

In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.

His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.

I'm on board with all this, my objection was that he was explicitly gay.

[Madness]

Hmm... damn. I doubt Bakker intended it but not achieving the wolf kill is such an interesting topic. And it explicitly mirrors Kellhus disruption of Sorweel's coming Elking.

I know FB and I have discussed coming of age rituals at length, many times.

[Cynical Cat]

The Skin Spy in the Skin Eaters was referred to as "girl" by its Synthese handler and never displays an erection.  My guess is that the Skin Spies have human like genitalia and this is a flaw when impersonating members of the opposite sex.