The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 03:56:37 pm
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From Saccarees & the Dunyain (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/saccarees-the-dunyain-t1249038.html) thread, some emerging ideas - things that have definitely been discussed elsewhere:
Will we see more of the Daimos and, based on it's mixed success against the Psukhe, how might it hold up to the Gnosis?
Is it plausible that Kellhus has convinced Iyokus and the Scarlet Spies to use the Daimos en masse at Dagliash?
Has Kellhus elaborated on the Daimos... Metadaimos?!
Did Kellhus truly travel to the Outside or simply summon two Ciphrang and fight them because he spars like a G? If he travelled beyond the World, did he do this physically or spiritually? Personal portal or conscious state?
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I think it's interesting to ponder (and I don't really have any answers here) whether or not Kellhus was being honest w/ the Nonman emissary.
We do not know for certain if Kellhus has traveled to the Outside, but it seems possible. And I note that the suspicion on the part of the Nonman seemed legit, so they didn't think it to be absurd that Kellhus might have pulled it off. I suspect that the Nonmen know their stuff, so to me, that lends credence to the possibility that Kellhus indeed could have done it.
So he tells the emissary that he saw the God shattered into a million pieces (don't have exact quote handy). Can we think of any reasons why Kellhus might have a motive to tell the Nonman this? Is it true or false? I suspect that Kellhus at this point genuinely wants the Nonmen to join him, so I am open to the possibility that he might lie if necessary.
On the Daimos, did it not seem that when you fight a Ciphrang in Earwa you don't exactly get the chance to chop off their head? It's more like if you inflict enough HP damage they get sent back to the Outside. That's just my speculation based on the text, but maybe it's actually easier to claim their skull if you do indeed walk the Outside and kill them there as it's a more true kill, so to speak.
Man, if there is a massive fight at Dagliash with Nonmen on both sides, Ciphrang, etc...that would be great.
The only thing missing would be Cishaurim.
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I'm jonesing all about Gnosis on Gnosis... aside from the climax at Sauglish there is literally none in the entire series :O?!
Now that I think of it, Trisk, on the Daimos vs. Gnosis/Psukhe, Achamian seems to be able to tackle one Ciphrang at a time while the three Ciphrang take on multiple Cishaurim until the stronger ones come and then they flee - none flee Achamian.
Also, if Achamian was good enough with a sword, perhaps, it'd have been simple for him to decapitate... the Decapitants.
I too view the conversation about the Outside between Kellhus and Nin'sariccas as one aspect of truth among a pack of lies. I mean, Nin'sariccas doesn't represent Nil'giccas, evidence suggests that Kellhus probably knows this, yet they enter into an agreement where Kellhus yields his firstborn daughter, possibly directly to ranking members of the Consult. At the very least, she's more valuable than most humans simply as a sorceress...
Problem is they give us like the teaser, of the trailer, of what the movie of the conversation would have been. They echo the whispers from Cleric's Sermons, the False Sun, and Meppa while Nin'sariccas seems to physically verify that the soul of Anasurimbor Kellhus is in his body.
Hmm... Dagliash :twisted: . Makes me drool for mind candy.
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I forget if they flee the Cishaurim because they're getting beaten on their own or if it's at the instruction of Iyokus. Do all three of them survive the Cish, or did one of them get taken out first?
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I was under the impression that they were, for whatever reason, recalled by iyokus, rather than them running.
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A little a and a little b. Then c. He tells them to flee and they are overmatched before they even turn to run.
"'Demon!' A voice like a thunderclap.
They turned from the blood-soaked marble, saw an old, eyeless man approach from the deeper temple. Something flashed from his forehead, like a stolen star. Others spilled between the flanking columns. More blind men.
Flee, the Voice whispered in his soul.
Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt...
Flee!
Then Sohorat, his slavering form caught in torrents of light, screamed.
Zioz leapt into the clouds.
Return me, manling! Throw off these chains!
But the Scarlet Schoolman was obstinate.
One last task... One more offending eye..." (TTT, p407)
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Has Kellhus elaborated on the Daimos... Metadaimos?!
If I had my books on hand, and some time to rifle through them, I might argue that the meta-effect on the Daimos would allow Kellhus to travel to the Outside, rather than from the Outside as seems to be the case in all our other examples of boundary crossing (topos and demon summoning).
While the Decapitants are an ominous symbol of Kellhus' power, I think there could be more to it than that; I mean, it's rather easy for him to impress men, but to impress Nonmen is something else altogether I would imagine. I like to pretend that Kellhus has usurped some position of power by displacing the Decapitants rather than them being just ornamental.
Also, I find it interesting, if my memory serves me right, that the Decapitants do not appear entirely inanimate (I seem to recall a description of one working its jaw whilst hanging from his belt, could be wrong). Any thoughts on that?
And lastly, who's to say that the Consult or Nonmen are not capable of wielding the Daimos? At one time there existed practitioners of the Aporos among the Nonmen, and that's some heavy shit..
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So, Madness, it looks like a chorae caused most of the worry as they took out 1 right away. Surprise and a full cadre of Cish focused on the other lesser demon made that an easy fight. And the third figured running was a good idea, what with the crazy numerical disadvantage and the chorae
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+1 on a couple thoughts, Camlost:
- The to and from distinction is pretty key. Also, perhaps summoning more powerful demons or pulling Gods/Realms into the World? If he went to the Outside, do you think its like Gemmell, a la conscious states, spirit journeys experienced like "dreaming" or full on Kellhus the man in physical body?
- The Decapitants did indeed seem to impress the Nonman Emissary and preempted the conversation about the Outside. Good call.
I'd thought that there must remain some personal experience of reality to Earwa - minds play tricks with ambiguity and fear... or Ciphrang never die :D?
On that note, some thoughts to address Camlost's post and Wilshire's:
I've always liked the simplicity of the concept of Iyokus' Gift.
It was initially articulated by Trisk, I'm pretty sure, a couple years ago on Westeros. Iyokus is doomed to damnation at the hands of the Ciphrang he pulls into the World. He uses one against Achamian at Iothiah and three against the Cishaurim at Shimeh.
Now I don't think Iyokus had many doubts about using the Daimos. But if Kellhus had to sway the Necromancer, ultimately, the way to do it would be to free Iyokus from his existential bondage.
I don't believe that this is what Kellhus would inevitably want with the Daimos but he could easily do it to disable the two Achamian kills.
That's also a real interesting aspect of this assertion because it depends on some special case info to do with Chorae and the Psukhe...
The Ciphrang on Kellhus' hip can't torture Iyokus for eternity - those would be the ones Achamian kills. The one that is hit with a Chorae in Shimeh salts. The other dies by the Psukhe. So only those that are killed by the Psukhe or Chorae actually experience dissolution?
@ Wilshire, you're right on, Iyokus would want to maximize the use of that which keepeth him forever and so tells the Ciphrang to flee. Also, before that quote the three of them kill dozens of Cishaurim.
However, Achamian probably couldn't take two of them. A Ciphrang probably couldn't take two Gnostic sorcerers.
DAGLIASH!!! That's it, going to reread Helm's Deep.
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Only the chorae and the Psukhe cause dissolution is a powerful distinction I think.
The one true god perhaps.
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I'd thought that there must remain some personal experience of reality to Earwa - minds play tricks with ambiguity and fear... or Ciphrang never die :D?
It seems I missed putting this in my initial post, it's kind of an extrapolation on the possibilities of the meta-Daimos and runs off one of the comments Trisk made: supposing that Kellhus did come to grasp a way of traveling to and from the Outside, I doubt he would be careless enough to leave those "portals" open (assuming that is, that it's not a case of astral projection or something like that). I guess I'm suggesting that before attempting anything so risky Kellhus would have had a way of controlling the situation, of sealing Earwa from the Outside (I know that gets into some complicated parallels with the Consult, but I'm going to ignore that for the time being). Applying that idea to the Decapitants, I wonder if perhaps Kellhus sealed the Ciphrang's return to the Outside, and thus the partially animate heads?
Now that I think about it this idea kind of undermines my previous one about him usurping a position among the Ciphrang. Unless of course, (now I'm just running on tangents) Kellhus decapitates the demons in the Outside and brings their heads to Earwa, sealing his portal, the demons from their bodies, and establishing the size of his stones for any race that would look upon him... crackpot theories are too fun
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or the decapitants are like the lock to the coffers, Kellhus bound some human souls to them to animate them and freak people out thinking that he had bound demons.
In other words, it's an illusion.
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The wathi doll was described as having a kind of a face, might have a weird effect if a face came through a face.
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Nice riposte, lockesnow. Practicality tickles me.
Camlost, I'm definitely under the impression that benjuka is being played in the Outside. There's my outlandish Nerdanel about Moenghus the Elder using the deaths of the Cishaurim to create a power base in the Outside at the time of his personal ascension... Kellhus is clearly playing at the next level.
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Well to me what kellhus discovered in the outside is how to create his own "Ground" like the greater Ciphangs do there as well as possibly send,against his/her will people from Earwa there thus"destituting"(The use of that word being made on purpose and hinting about another form of sorcery long thought lost :mrgreen: )them.
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+1 for the former part.
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Well to me what kellhus discovered in the outside is how to create his own "Ground" like the greater Ciphangs do there as well as possibly send,against his/her will people from Earwa there thus"destituting"(The use of that word being made on purpose and hinting about another form of sorcery long thought lost :mrgreen: )them.
So what are you suggesting about this new ground?
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AB seems to be appreciating my Nerdanel of Moenghus and Kellhus being able to create their own realms of Desire in the Outside with the deaths of their followers - I'm pretty sure he's not using Grounds to refer to the more traditional Planets interpretation.
Echoed in other posts that Kellhus is somehow collecting souls in his own Outside realm, stopping them from reaching Yatwer or any of the other Hundred.
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"You speak as thought the Thought were a living thing."
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"Because it is."
Perhaps TTT is the architect of a realm in the Outside. Moe and Kell are it's prophets.
The Darkness that Comes Before
Frontispiece:
I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit—namely, that a thought comes when “it” wants, not when “I” want . . .
—FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE, BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL
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Might Kellhus' establishing of his own realm within the Outside lend some illumination to Ironsoul's comment in Cil-Aujas (sorry I don't have my JE to reference) that is something along the lines of "If this were Hell I'd remember it"? If I'm not mistaken, there is a moment where Akka reflects that Ironsoul must be Zaudanyani (I know that is not even close to the right spelling but I imagine you guys will know what I mean), and he certainly must be someone of significance within Kellhus' schemes given that he accompanies Nil-Giccas and plays host/guardian to our favourite Wizard. Could this be interpreted, in light of previous posts, as corroborating Kellhus' direct agency in the Outside?
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Does Kellhus plan on playing a sort of intermediary role and thus prevent himself from falling into damnation (is this the trick the ciphrang have used to not fall into damnation?)?
For example, X prays to his ancestors, his ancestors are his intermediary, the intermediary petitions the god. X cannot contact the god directly, so he must first reach an intermediary, and that intermediary, could be ancestors, a 'god' (yatwer), or a powerful prophet (sejenis, fane, ajencis) can contact the god. Kellhus could be trying to achieve that role and secure for himself a place that is not damned.
iirc there's a christian interpretation that used the intermediary idea to explain how man -> Jesus -> God that Jesus intercedes on man's behalf.
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"'Anasurimbor Kellhus!' the Captain raved at the survivors. 'He is the God!' And this' - he swung Hurm's head so that blood flew from the crimson lobes of its mouth - 'is His work!'
Achamian could only watch with detached wonder, the kind that afflicts the survivors of sudden catastrophes. He saw well enough. He knew well enough. And yet none of it made the slightest sense.
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The Captain, it seemed, was a Believer.
Zaudunyani" (WLW, p295).
Cheers, Camlost. I'm going to feel your semester overload, in a week or so. Glad to have your perspective.
lockesnow, I have to assume at this point that Kellhus knows how to play the Hundred. And I also Nerdanel that Moeghus created his own Realm via his sect of Cishaurim dying at Shimeh, and thus plays benjuka from the Outside.
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AB seems to be appreciating my Nerdanel of Moenghus and Kellhus being able to create their own realms of Desire in the Outside with the deaths of their followers - I'm pretty sure he's not using Grounds to refer to the more traditional Planets interpretation.
Echoed in other posts that Kellhus is somehow collecting souls in his own Outside realm, stopping them from reaching Yatwer or any of the other Hundred.
I did indeed use the term "ground" to refer to a metaphysical realm in the Outside.Also I cannot help but to wonder if certain Nonmen managed to go to the outside,like Kellhus did and were for some them,replaced by Ciphrangs and if so what if those nonmen who managed the crossing were users of Apropos,I mean this could be tied to the ban of the said discipline.
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Well, there is the Ciphrang Throughout History thread, which takes that as its focus. According to Maleowebi, at least, there have been instances of possession and those possessed become beacons of fruitless destruction...
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Mimara saw Kosotor as a ciphrang, right? he's something of a beacon of destruction.
I mean if you're going to send a bodyguard with the Ring of Power, why not send a bodyguard of demons?
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Define "saw".
She thought of him as mr. big evil.
I thought she only "saw" (JE) that he was a tad more damned that anyone she'd ever gazed upon.
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"The Judging Eye, which had remained sealed for so long, opens.
And she sees them standing in a ragged arc, demons on the plain. Their hides charred, the hair of their few redeeming deeds the only light threading them. And the darkest, the most fearsome by far, lies directly before her… kneeling. The Captain.
"Princess-Imperial," it croaks, glaring from eyes of fiery tar. "Save us from damnation" (WLW, p644).
I think they're just damned... I certainly don't think this provides evidence to the Captain is Ciphrang theory. Though, the Daimos summons their Outside forms to the world. Perhaps, a Ciphrang's essence or soul trapped in the Captain's body would just look more damned.
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"She tells him what she has learned about the Captain and his mission. "He knows he's damned. We are his only hope of salvation - or so he believes. Kellhus has promised him paradise" (WLW, p673).
In retrospect, at this moment, my take away from this and forming opinion is that Kellhus is using the Daimos exactly like the Inchoroi have been using the IF. Show your followers that true damnation is far worse than anything you might imagine. Tell them you alone can promise the way past... to Oblivion or Redemption.
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"She tells him what she has learned about the Captain and his mission. "He knows he's damned. We are his only hope of salvation - or so he believes. Kellhus has promised him paradise" (WLW, p673).
In retrospect, at this moment, my take away from this and forming opinion is that Kellhus is using the Daimos exactly like the Inchoroi have been using the IF. Show your followers that true damnation is far worse than anything you might imagine. Tell them you alone can promise the way past... to Oblivion or Redemption.
If that's the case it could be that Kellhus took the Captain to the Outside simply to create one of the most hardened souls imaginable to follow him...and yeah...it affect would be a lot like the IF. Nothing else matters but salvation/oblivion/redemption.
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Brain is working on overtime today.
I was rereading a bit of WLW and I've realized something...
Kellhus is constantly going back and forth between the World and the Outside!
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When and how does he gain this ability? It would be interesting if it was simply an extension of Inrithi knowledge, much like the meta-Gnosis was simply taking the knowledge of the Gnosis to the next level. That would make sense, actually, if the Inchoroi are in fact behind the Tusk. Another instance of the Inchorois' plan being twisted to Kellhus' advantage.
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Brain is working on overtime today.
I was rereading a bit of WLW and I've realized something...
Kellhus is constantly going back and forth between the World and the Outside!
Why would you think that?
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Meyna:
"The Decapitants, as the demonic heads had come to be called ... Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unificiation Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare to ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer... (WLW, p565).
Wilshire, its a subtle hint... especially as it's laced before we find out definitively that Kellhus has the Daimos - some speculators obviously had it mostly figured since reading them on Kellhus' waist in TJE.
"The chamber was vacant" (WLW, p71) - It's highlighted over and over in the passage. Stark. Empty. That there's nothing in the room for Proyas to miss. Kellhus keeps spartan.
"'My Lord and Salvation?' he called to the empty air.
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'Yes... Please, Proyas. Share my fire.'
And there he was, sitting cross-legged before the octagonal hearth" (p71).
We know from later in the passage that the body physically bows, unburned, over and in, Kellhus' Seeing-Flame, because Kellhus, not Proyas, pulls Proyas out of the fire.
If nothing else, I figure Kellhus would have a Fortress of Solitude... in the Outside!
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Page 71 in my edition of WLW is all in The Meorn Wilderness.
Where is it supposed to be?
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WLW, Ch. 2, Istyuli Plains, first Proyas perspective.
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Thanks. Was page 44-47 in mine.
A few things:
Just before he calls "My Lord and Salvation?" there is this "The chamber was vacant. Even still, Proyas fell to his knees and lowered his face to the simple reed mats."
From that I'd say it is possible that Kellhus entered the room silently, sat down, and then addressed Proyas without him noticing beforehand.
Though, to contradict that:
"He sat with the slack repose of someone who had not moved for some time."
To what end would Kellhus want to sneak into his own room, and its clear he didn't teleport himself in since a big blue light would have been noticed. I suppose that if the transition between the world and the outside is a quite one, a simple fadding in and out, then he could have very well have come from the outside.
Also, "The only symbols visible were those inscribed, column after meticulous column, about the octagonal circuit of the small iron hearth set in the room's heart."
This calls to mind the circle of runes that is required to summon ciphrang.
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+1 on Fading. I think the World and Outside transfer happens differently than Cants of Transposing. I could see it as being nothing, a blink, and he's in or Out.
That last is all about giving sorcerous power to the Seeing-Flame, in my opinion. Nothing to do with my assertion.
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LOVE THIS THREAD!!!
@ Madness/Trisk - Love the Iyokus' Gift thing! Wondeful! +1 Uptusk!
@ Madness - cool shit about chorae/psukhe causing demonic dissolution!
what you said about Kellhus constantly going back and forth between the world and the outside--to get orders from dad? i love your theory that he's carving out his own realm, kind of like an incorporeal version of the rebuilt andiamine heights. built with souls? devotees?
@ Camlost - before reading your post, I had never thought about the 'testicular' nature of the decapitants. Big stones indeed.
@ lockesnow - decapitants are illusions, brilliant! Kellhus would do shit like that. What else could he do? Impersonate Yatwer?
like your idea that Kellhus is setting himself up as an intercession -- "pray to me, i'll actually keep the other gods from eating you"
@ Anasurimbor Bob - Kellhus discovering new sorcery through the Outside? Love it! Would he be able to discover ALL forms of sorcerery from that POV? Would he be able to work magic like the gods? No mark?
When we see more Ciphrang, it will be neat to see how they address Kellhus? Slave to be or king?
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@ Madness/Trisk - Love the Iyokus' Gift thing! Wondeful! +1 Uptusk!
I'm going to go all Trisk with that one ;). I just gave it a fancy name.
@ Madness - cool shit about chorae/psukhe causing demonic dissolution!
Sorry, MG, can you point out my quote to me?
what you said about Kellhus constantly going back and forth between the world and the outside--to get orders from dad? i love your theory that he's carving out his own realm, kind of like an incorporeal version of the rebuilt andiamine heights. built with souls? devotees?
I assume taking over pockets of desire in the Outside is as easy as killing the Ciphrang there?
But why wouldn't Kellhus go Outside to train, to learn more... etc.
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@ Madness - You said this awesome thing on page 1:
That's also a real interesting aspect of this assertion because it depends on some special case info to do with Chorae and the Psukhe...
The Ciphrang on Kellhus' hip can't torture Iyokus for eternity - those would be the ones Achamian kills. The one that is hit with a Chorae in Shimeh salts. The other dies by the Psukhe. So only those that are killed by the Psukhe or Chorae actually experience dissolution?
Kellhus plan: use the Daimos to call gods into the world, use psukhe/aporos to kill them one by one. Golgotterath is the ideal place since the boundary is weak there. Result: either the Outside dies and the whole universe is disenchanted or the Outside is emptied and ready to be dominated by a single Dunyain. :)
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Lol - I just can't figure out what happens to the Ciphrang (is there an s for plural Ciphrang... why do I feel it is both singular and plural) who are beaten by a sorcerer.