Seem similar to me.
Perhaps chanv comes from sranc (remember they are geneticly twisted non-men).
Given that chanv deadens the emotions whilst sharpening the intellect, it could be part of Kellhus' plan to get the ordeal more 'emotionally prepared' prior to direct conflict with the consult.
Its mentioned in the books that the only reason Eleazaras doesn't partake of chanv is the fact that nobody knows where it comes from. Also, correct me if I am wrong but isnt Iyokus described as having translucent skin. I seem to remember parts where Eleazaras or someone can see Iyokus's veins and muscles through his skin. I believe the Inchoroi also have translucent skin.
Stupid theory: Chanv is another, centuries long method by which the Consult attempts to dominate civilizations of Men. Skin spies in key positions of power exist throughout the pre-Kelhus Three Seas, but chanv seems exclusive to the Ainoni nobility, perhaps the Consult's reaction to one of the great powers being under the direct rule of a School.
A couple problems I see with this is that we know Non-men ashes have effects similar to chanv like increased mental prowess, neutered emotions, and night vision for some reason. I dont remember anything about Iyokus having superior night vision, nor the Skin Eaters having see through skin.
I seem to remember that chanv comes via Zeum.
I had forgotten about the skin translucency etc, but I think that could tie into my theory, in as much as the non-man dna could be mixed with that of the inchies within the sranc by means of the Tekne.
Certainly agree that the consult could be responsible for chanv in the manner you suggest.
crackpot: If Kellhus intends to serve/ally with the no-god (not neccesarily to the consult's benefit), ingesting sranc might cause the men of the ordeal to be susceptible to the no-god's will-binding powers. Or perhaps it might flow the other way, causing Mog to be able to apprehend himself through other's perceptions :p
From the wiki:QuoteJekhia is a tributart nation of High Ainon, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus.
Jekhia is famed as the mysterious source of chanv.
The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics.
Iyokus does become translucent. It's why Eli trusts him even after realizing there are skin spies everywhere.
I'm not sure if eating Sranc will be enough to place them under the No-God's control. I think the No-God enters into beings that lack souls. Which is why it can command all dragons save Wutteat, who being the precursor has a soul.
(I think Wutteat was altered from existing life, rather than made whole cloth from the Tekne.)
Agree with you there, put that controlling theory to bed.
And Jekhia is near the Katyursus mountains and nowhere near the north, so unless the mountains are full of sranc, chanv is probably unlikely to be made from them.
what does xiuhianni racial characteristics mean?
Quote from: p.501, TTT GlossaryXiuhianni: The Xiuhianni are one of the Five Tribes of Men. They are a black-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned race that still dwells beyond the Great Kayarsus.
According to The Chronicle of the Tusk, the Xiuhianni refused to follow the other four tribes into Eärwa.
Random question, wasn't the tracker that was with the Skin-Spies (I forget his name) Jekhian?
I always found it curious how Akka, being as learned as he is did not pick up on the similarities between Chanv and Quiri. Being that it turns the skin see through, I wonder if it is Inchoroi remains or something that they introduced or developed.
Yeah, considering its origins chanv is unlikely to have anything in common with Sranc or qirri. Since it is associated with Xiuhanni, it most likely comes from Eanna. It also clearly Bakkerworld equivalent of spice and I wonder how this will play out. Eannan Shai-huluds anyone? No, this goes too far into the crazy theories territory, but perhaps something less obvious?
Too far into crazy theories? S'if.
Quote from: lockesnowwhat does xiuhianni racial characteristics mean?
Judging by their name and (admittedly vague) physical description, combined with the fact that they remained in the east, I think it's fair to assume the Xiuhianni are probably the "Asians" of Bakkerverse. It would be cool to see what their culture is like, and in particular what they do or do not know of all the events taking place around the Three Seas. It seems odd that they would be ignorant of the fact that there are legions of evil rape aliens trying to kill the majority of the people on the planet. Perhaps they'll send an envoy in the next trilogy? Though we don't really know how far or close their civilization is beyond the Kayarsus (sp?), and it seems like the other four tribes have been completely isolated from whatever is east and south of the continent they're on (I'd assume the north just becomes an arctic, and thus less populated).
Bargil mentioned that the Inchoroi have translucent skin. I've always pegged the Inchoroi as the perpetrator's of Chanv. Why wouldn't this species with very specific control of their genome/connectome (Sebastien Hueng's fancy word for the brain as a culmination of neural structures) created a substance to prolong life and make them smarter? Of course, this is assuming some biological homogeneity among the species of the Void, that it would be easily adaptable to and function the same on humans.
Also, concerning the Xiuhianni, let's take the perspective that of those Inchoroi who survived the fall, many of them interacted with the Five Tribes of Men beyond the Kayarsus (spelling's good, Francis) while fighting the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. They created the Tusk, added at least the False Men Imperative, and gave the Halaroi Chorae.
Now, for whatever reason - conspiracy theories should abound - the Xiuhianni don't join the Four Tribes in the Breaking of the Gates.
I would assume that there is an entire civilization of Man beyond the Kayarsus, likely with ritual belief surrounding Inchoroi worship - with or without the Consult's actual intervention, which is itself very likely probable.
Quote from: Francis BuckJudging by their name and (admittedly vague) physical description, combined with the fact that they remained in the east, I think it's fair to assume the Xiuhianni are probably the "Asians" of Bakkerverse.
Yep. Their racial features are obviously Asiatic (the descriptions of Xonghis, such as "squinting eyes" and "his Xiuhianni blood was more visible in daylight"). Their location in the distant east, and what we know of their language, also gives an Asian impression.QuoteIt seems odd that they would be ignorant of the fact that there are legions of evil rape aliens trying to kill the majority of the people on the planet.
It must be quite a terrifying shock for the rest of the planet. In Eärwa, at least the leadership knows what's going on with the Consult, and has a clue why their babies start dying by the millions. On the other hand, the people in Eänna have never heard of the No-God and have absolutely no idea what is happening.
But this brings questions up about the 144K legend, etc. What about the rest of the planet? There are surely millions more round the globe. I find it hard to believe the whole human population of the planet is confined to Earwa. Didn't Scott make mention of this in the interview where he revealed the Tusk's creators being the Inchoroi?
Sranc ate em all.
Worldwide graveyard... very Bakker... Touche, Curethan.
I would find that very, very dull to be quite honest.
Quote from: SiderisI would find that very, very dull to be quite honest.Well they cant ALL be gems. Bakker is takinig enough time wiping out 1 population. If there are several more, this series would go on forever (Hurray).
I always thought that Chanv was a Consult invention, it is much like the womb plague in that that it extends life but decreases the fertility of the users. There is some mention of the drop in children of the Ainoni higher castes because they use this stuff. The Inchoroi traveled to the east to deliver the Tusk in ancient times, and I figure their agents east of the Kayursus deliver Chanv to the peoples their, and those people have commercial contacts with their cousins in Jekhia. It seems very Inchoroi in that it extends life and sharpens the intellect in exchange for fertility, in essence sacrificing the future of the user for the present. An end around for the ruling classes who would lead humanity against them in any conflict.
My personal opinion is that chanv also is made from dead Nonmen. There might be a few in the Gates or some other Mansion we don't know the location of (Nihrimsul?) that the Jekhians have access to.
For example it could be diluted, boiled generic Nonman instead of properly fried heroic Nonmen.
Nonman with a dash of Sranc (to taste), the real breakfast of champions.
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005The ultimate source of chanv, at present, is entirely unknown. According to the word on the street in Carythusal, it's either cultivated by Jekki tribesmen on the slopes of the Kayarsus, or simply obtained by them from Xiuhianni traders from Eanna, or it's the product of the guano belonging to a mythical species talking bats.
Not surprisingly, popular opinion favours the latter explanation.
lol, mythical species of talking bats immediately makes me think inchies... was it supposed to?
I would have thought if the consult made chanv, they would have manipulated Ioyokus (okay, not good at the spelling)/the scarlet spires master of spies) to councel the scarlet spires leader against supporting the holy war.
I think maybe someones got a nonman chained and on tap. They drain off some blood, then apply a tear of god to it. Chanv!
Okay, lol, that's kind of intuitive alchemy going on there, but hey...
Quote from: Conditionedlol, mythical species of talking bats immediately makes me think inchies... was it supposed to?
Reminds me of the man headed bird - Aurang's synthese...
To be fair, the Inchoroi are described as having translucent skin as are Chanv users. There have been plenty of hypotheses over the years about the Inchoroi/Consult being responsible for Chanv as Eanna is a wildcard that remains firmly under the Inchoroi thumb, in my opinion.
+1 Conditioned. I think most of us thought of the Inchoroi.
I've always thought the Inchoroi were responsible for Chanv since the skin comparison. Why wouldn't Inchoroi have nootropics which augment for certain cognitive functions?
hah, somewhere in Eanna men have enslaved an inchoroi and harvest their poo to sell to the three seas as an exotic drug.
Eat shit, men.
Quirri raises the intellect as well. It also gives night vision (because that's useful in dungeon deliving ;) ) Were not told if Ioyokus can also see well in the dark.
I venture to say he doesnt....
unless he sees well in the ultimate darkness of blindness
like Cishaurim.
That would be interesting... Again, I don't think Kellhus (read anyone) actually understands the Third Sight. I'm actually convincing myself its a wildcard he's not expecting.
It also makes you steam in the rain, Callan ;). +1 for Visual Metaphor.
I had meant before his blinding, of course!
I meant the images you conjured in my mind, Callan. +1 for Iyokus the Cishaurim though.
It seems odd that Cleric has been saving Cujara for all these years. If qirri offers no advantage to a nonman, there must have still been several opportunities to use it before the slog of slogs. It's such a precious substance and it seems that the main thing is that Akka and Mimara get it.
Cleric speaks to a statue of Cujuara Cinmoi in Cil Aujus, I presumed he took the ashes from the statue, and that the statue was a grave marker/fancy ass crematorium vase.
Normally the nonmen bury their dead. They only burn their greatest heroes.
Normally the nonmen bury their dead. They only burn their greatest heroes.
Kellhus is going to kill Mekeritrig at Dagliash and snort him all the way to Golgotterath.
Maybe some of the Nonmen will be willing to be burnt, who knows what sways the minds of the Intact? Thinking about how little we know of the Nonmens overall motives.
I was thinking along the same lines MG. But, I am fairly positive that 'using' any nonman would enhance all non-Dunyain humans.
Qurri yet reminds me of chanv on steroids. A steroid for the mind at least. After all, the mind can overcome just about anything, who needs steroids for the body? Sure the skin-eaters where wasting away on the stuff, but they hardly knew. The body obeys what the mind commands.I was thinking along the same lines MG. But, I am fairly positive that 'using' any nonman would enhance all non-Dunyain humans.
non-Dunyain humans? Why that notation?
Qurri yet reminds me of chanv on steroids. A steroid for the mind at least. After all, the mind can overcome just about anything, who needs steroids for the body? Sure the skin-eaters where wasting away on the stuff, but they hardly knew. The body obeys what the mind commands.I was thinking along the same lines MG. But, I am fairly positive that 'using' any nonman would enhance all non-Dunyain humans.
non-Dunyain humans? Why that notation?
Just my take. I feel the "lowest" Nonman, whatever the fuck that means, wouldn't sharpen let's say, Kellhus' intellect as much as it would for anyone who might not be on his level.
If in fact, that the strength of Qirri is relative to the "strength" of the burnt Nonman, and if there is such a thing as a "lowly Nonman".
The fact that Bakker closes out the Great Ordeal POV with Kell telling them they'll be eating sranc means it's a significant act. I assume.
And so: is it because sranc are somehow polluted by being of the tekne, or because they are soulless yet active entities, or do they echo the spiritual vacuum of the NG, or...
I feel like insight in how eating sranc affects the GO is insight in why eating anything sorcerous might perturb a life.