The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Dunkelheit on July 27, 2017, 12:37:39 pm
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Kayûtas: I have to mostly agree with Jackehehe here...I thought he was a boring character for the first three books of this series. Nothing distinctive about him (unlike his siblings), he was basically a more human Kellhus, "Kellhus Lite", if you will. :P
While I agree he did have a role as a Kellhus stand-in to Sorweel and later Proyas, and was the tiniest bit more interesting to me by the end, I ultimately came away from the series with (almost) the same impression I had at the beginning. I guess that can be more of a subjective thing, though, as some people out there might like him as a character?
(From a maxed out thread)
I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself. His reaction also seemed to show that it wasn't a calculated decision and he that had gone crazy just like everybody else, leaving Proyas as the only semi-sane person in the Great Ordeal. Its a huge difference between having this superhuman on your team and having him as another lunatic you need to control, which seems like an impossible task given what Dunyain are capable of. As the story progresses he becomes this devil on Proyas shoulder, using his intellect to justify his insanity and actually making himself and others believe they doing the right thing. I think this is a far more horrifying portrayal of what an insane Dunyain could be than Inrilatas. Someone who not just heaps damnation upon himself but corrupts everyone with his superhuman powers of persuasion.
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Also, the scene when Serwa comes back is just... well written. Of course most of how we see Kayûtas could be attributed the perspective we see him from. You could make an argument for him being far more measured and calculating than he appears to be. Personally I think how he is described to have blood around his groin when he meets his sister goes against that conclusion.
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Also, the scene when Serwa comes back is just... well written. Of course most of how we see Kayûtas could be attributed the perspective we see him from. You could make an argument for him being far more measured and calculating than he appears to be. Personally I think how he is described to have blood around his groin when he meets his sister goes against that conclusion.
Perhaps then, his role is more to illustrate that even a Dûnyain can be broken by the tribulations of the Ordeal?
Also, welcome to the forum, great first post.
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Perhaps then, his role is more to illustrate that even a Dûnyain can be broken by the tribulations of the Ordeal?
Also, welcome to the forum, great first post.
Thanks! Maybe. Kellhus gets broken on the circumfix after all. And the Survivor goes mad too, so the Dunyain are not unbreakable. I see Kayûtas as more warped than broken though. Perhaps it's to add to Mimaras/the Gods view that the Dunyains mission is a fools errand and the shortest path is inherently wrong. One of the most haunting scenes for me is when Proyas goes to murder the king of the Scalded and the king says something along the lines of "We walk the shortest path together". Indicating that he understands why Proyas is doing it and agrees.
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I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself. His reaction also seemed to show that it wasn't a calculated decision and he that had gone crazy just like everybody else, leaving Proyas as the only semi-sane person in the Great Ordeal. Its a huge difference between having this superhuman on your team and having him as another lunatic you need to control, which seems like an impossible task given what Dunyain are capable of. As the story progresses he becomes this devil on Proyas shoulder, using his intellect to justify his insanity and actually making himself and others believe they doing the right thing. I think this is a far more horrifying portrayal of what an insane Dunyain could be than Inrilatas. Someone who not just heaps damnation upon himself but corrupts everyone with his superhuman powers of persuasion.
Well, the quote you used at the beginning was mine so you might know how I feel already. ;)
Kayûtas succumbing to the effects of Sranc meat was one of the things that made him a bit more interesting in my eyes, actually. While personally I still don't find him that interesting as a character, I can see where you're coming from with his influence on Proyas - the thing is, Kayûtas as the manipulator was cut short by Kellhus' return. If it had gone on, maybe I would agree more, but I just can't see him as being that terrifying.
And there were definitely some underlying emotions there, with him trying to stop Serwa to go back and fight after she'd been hit with the blast. This book did flesh out his character a bit more than previous ones, but it was just not enough for me. Maybe I'll change my opinion after a reread, maybe not, this is one of those cases where your mileage may vary. :)
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I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself.
I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.
I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.
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I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.
I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.
I agree with half of that - it's plausible that Kayûtas survived if Serwa (or Saccarees) managed to teleport away with him in time. It would be nice to have him around for the next series, a chance to see more character development and how he would cope with being the last (part-)Dûnyain remaining (aside from the Boy). I'm not counting Serwa because I don't think she survived - even if she did manage to teleport away with Kayûtas, she was so severely wounded already that the effort would have killed her. I might end up being surprised, though!
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I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.
I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.
I agree with half of that - it's plausible that Kayûtas survived if Serwa (or Saccarees) managed to teleport away with him in time. It would be nice to have him around for the next series, a chance to see more character development and how he would cope with being the last (part-)Dûnyain remaining (aside from the Boy). I'm not counting Serwa because I don't think she survived - even if she did manage to teleport away with Kayûtas, she was so severely wounded already that the effort would have killed her. I might end up being surprised, though!
I wouldn't count her out. At the end of TGO, she wields sorcery despite while wearing a Nonmen version of the Agonic Collar. Granted that doesn't seem to cause physical wounds. But it still suggests she can more or less ignore extreme pain.
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I wouldn't count her out. At the end of TGO, she wields sorcery despite while wearing a Nonmen version of the Agonic Collar. Granted that doesn't seem to cause physical wounds. But it still suggests she can more or less ignore extreme pain.
I would actually like her to survive, it's just that I have a hard time imagining how she could. Yes, I agree she has been shown to be very powerful and very resilient, but she can still die if her wounds are severe enough even if she can handle extreme pain. She already fought Skuthula after taking damage, then she lost part of her arm to the Chorae and by the end she was in a bad enough state that Kayûtas had to carry her. I'm not too hopeful. :(
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In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.
Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.
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In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.
Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.
Probably going to read this scene in my next sit-down with the canon artifact. It reminded me so much of Cnaiur's moment in the beginning of TTT watching from the inside/outside of the circuit of Inrithi Zaudunyani belief (paraphasing badly).
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In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.
Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.
I thought so too, I am mostly referring to how Kayûtas appear from Proyas perspective not necessarily how he actually is. But I also think Kellhus plan was such that it would succeed regardless of whether Kayûtas would lose his mind or not. So I still think it up for interpretation whether or not he did.
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My personal interpretation is that Kayutas did succumb to the Meat. Also, I am pretty sure that Serwa is finished but I am 50/50 on Kayûtas. It would be VERY interesting seeing him in TNG if he did survive.
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After Cnauir coming back in TGO, I have to think both Serwa and Kayutas are alive since they weren't killed on screen. She's in pretty bad shape no doubt but people in this series have lingered after some pretty horrible things. It might take some terrible sacrifice but I think she'll be in the third series.
I liked Kayutas, his storyline was fine given the role he plays in the narrative.
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Maybe Serwa has an important role as a hunger in the Outside.
For Kayutas maybe he didn't succumb to the meat and he just pretended to have succumbed, following orders from Kellhus.
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After Cnauir coming back in TGO, I have to think both Serwa and Kayutas are alive since they weren't killed on screen. She's in pretty bad shape no doubt but people in this series have lingered after some pretty horrible things. It might take some terrible sacrifice but I think she'll be in the third series.
If she doesn't survive, Earwa is one more step closer to fucked. At least one of the Mutilated uses sorcery to move the Carapace and Serwa is only half-Dunyain (but at least she's a big something in the plus column for Earwa's resistance).
Plus, I think one-armed Serwa would just make such a badass aunt.
EDIT: On topic, if Kayutas survives I want more superhuman feats of swordplay, please and thank you.
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After Cnauir coming back in TGO, I have to think both Serwa and Kayutas are alive since they weren't killed on screen. She's in pretty bad shape no doubt but people in this series have lingered after some pretty horrible things. It might take some terrible sacrifice but I think she'll be in the third series.
If she doesn't survive, Earwa is one more step closer to fucked. At least one of the Mutilated uses sorcery to move the Carapace and Serwa is only half-Dunyain (but at least she's a big something in the plus column for Earwa's resistance).
Plus, I think one-armed Serwa would just make such a badass aunt.
EDIT: On topic, if Kayutas survives I want more superhuman feats of swordplay, please and thank you.
Even if Serwa did survive, she really can't compete with a full blooded trained Dûnyain at all.... Never mind.4 of those.
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Dunno folk should read serwe's dragon fight again, and read it in the context of the Qirri. I had been watching out for it since Koringhus took Qirri and it expanded his consciousness/awareness. There is something going on with it and her abilities on it.
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Even if Serwa did survive, she really can't compete with a full blooded trained Dûnyain at all.... Never mind.4 of those.
Right but without her, humanity has zero Metagnostic Sorceresses left. Or I mean, Saccarees but Achamian could take him ;).
Dunno folk should read serwe's dragon fight again, and read it in the context of the Qirri. I had been watching out for it since Koringhus took Qirri and it expanded his consciousness/awareness. There is something going on with it and her abilities on it.
Yeah, I have to wait until I'm there but I feel like she wonders about "is this how Father sees all the time?" and waxes about total awareness and other such awesomeness?
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My money is on Kayutas being the Field General of the Second Apocalypse. A shadow of what his father was, but with Serwa at his side, a shadow is more than enough to follow when the end of the world has come.
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Serwa would be the obvious next host for the Thousandfold Thought imo, Kayutas doesn't seem to see deeply enough. But I don't think she can survive the events at Golgotteroth intact enough for any more field work - they could make a nice tandem team.
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My money is on Kayutas being the Field General of the Second Apocalypse. A shadow of what his father was, but with Serwa at his side, a shadow is more than enough to follow when the end of the world has come.
If the Ordeal and any of its principles actually survive, I'd wager that the Prophetess Mimara is going to be the one leading.
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My money is on Kayutas being the Field General of the Second Apocalypse. A shadow of what his father was, but with Serwa at his side, a shadow is more than enough to follow when the end of the world has come.
If the Ordeal and any of its principles actually survive, I'd wager that the Prophetess Mimara is going to be the one leading.
Certainly the Great Ordeal of Kellhus has perished, buy maybe we have the remnants of it renamed and rallied by Mim&Akka&Kayutas in something like Xenophon's "Anabasis", but fighting hordes of gangraping sranc instead of Persian.
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I haven't spent a lot of time on this, but I thought Kayûtas and the state of his mental faculties during the Meat episode was very ambigious. It is established fairly early that although they are seen as holy due to their relationship to the Holy Aspect-Emperor, generals and menials alike are unnerved, even frightened of Kellhus's children. Kayûtas is a foil to this; Proyas (or so I read him, at least) thinks of Kayûtas as the reasonable son, the boy in the family that seems most human, without losing any of the sharpness of mind and sight that characterizes Dûnyain. My first interpretation was that Kellhus left Kayûtas behind knowing exactly what the Meat would do to the Men of the Ordeal, and instructed him to partake in the acts of madness, all as a part of fooling Proyas into giving the command. If Kayûtas himself, Kellhus's son, succumbs to the madness, then Proyas has only one choice. It becomes clear as day that the madness is all-reaching. If not even the Lord-and-Prophet's blood is safe, then certainly that would give implicit support to his decision to sanction cannibalism. The madness takes all, as it were.
Maybe this is taking it a step too far, and the Meat episode really just showed how far removed Kellhus is from his more worldly children, but I thought it would have been devilishly clever to have Kayûtas indulge in the very depravity Kellhus knew that Proyas would struggle with. Now, if that really was the origin of Kayûtas seemingly mad episode, then that makes him an all the more convincing and terrifying character, because it shows that he is able to set aside sentiment to serve the aims of TTT.
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Certainly the Great Ordeal of Kellhus has perished, buy maybe we have the remnants of it renamed and rallied by Mim&Akka&Kayutas in something like Xenophon's "Anabasis", but fighting hordes of gangraping sranc instead of Persian.
The March of the Ten Thousand. That's great ;).
You ever read any Paul Kearney, Woden? His Macht series is basically a fantasy rendition of the above. Though, I think all fans of Bakker would enjoy his The Monarchies of God quintet.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Zealously.
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Certainly the Great Ordeal of Kellhus has perished, buy maybe we have the remnants of it renamed and rallied by Mim&Akka&Kayutas in something like Xenophon's "Anabasis", but fighting hordes of gangraping sranc instead of Persian.
The March of the Ten Thousand. That's great ;).
You ever read any Paul Kearney, Woden? His Macht series is basically a fantasy rendition of the above. Though, I think all fans of Bakker would enjoy his The Monarchies of God quintet.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Zealously.
In the Prince of Nothing, I definitely saw a LOT of shadowing(historically speaking) of the First Crusades in their march to take back Jerusalem(Shimeh). Maybe we will see some other major campaign mimicked in the No-God. Napoleon after his loss in Russia? Dunno. Would be cool, though, as the initial one led me to read up a lot more on the Crusades. Made me a more learned man. (insert 'like a sir' emote here)
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Certainly the Great Ordeal of Kellhus has perished, buy maybe we have the remnants of it renamed and rallied by Mim&Akka&Kayutas in something like Xenophon's "Anabasis", but fighting hordes of gangraping sranc instead of Persian.
The March of the Ten Thousand. That's great ;).
You ever read any Paul Kearney, Woden? His Macht series is basically a fantasy rendition of the above. Though, I think all fans of Bakker would enjoy his The Monarchies of God.
Not yet. It's on my "to read" list.
But, yes, some Anabasis or Grand Armee analogy could be fucking great.
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In the Prince of Nothing, I definitely saw a LOT of shadowing(historically speaking) of the First Crusades in their march to take back Jerusalem(Shimeh). Maybe we will see some other major campaign mimicked in the No-God. Napoleon after his loss in Russia? Dunno. Would be cool, though, as the initial one led me to read up a lot more on the Crusades. Made me a more learned man. (insert 'like a sir' emote here)
littlegrice, I'm not sure if you'd have been exposed to this before but Bakker has mentioned over the years that the omnipresent war POVs were heavily influenced by both Homer but specifically Harold Lamb's Iron Men and Saints.
Great read, as is much of his other historical fiction (I can't speak to his fantasy fiction, though I'm sure its worth reading too).
Not yet. It's on my "to read" list.
But, yes, some Anabasis or Grand Armee analogy could be fucking great.
Indeed :).
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I hope that Bakker could read some day Lord Sumption's "The 100 years War". Masterpiece.
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littlegrice, I'm not sure if you'd have been exposed to this before but Bakker has mentioned over the years that the omnipresent war POVs were heavily influenced by both Homer but specifically Harold Lamb's Iron Men and Saints.
Great read, as is much of his other historical fiction (I can't speak to his fantasy fiction, though I'm sure its worth reading too).
Now it's officially on the 'to read' list.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Zealously.
Thank you! It was about time :)
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I hope that Bakker could read some day Lord Sumption's "The 100 years War". Masterpiece.
I started reading it last year, but got distracted by basically everything.
I don't even recall why I was reading it though.